New Guidelines

[Mongoose39uk]

Good Morning Folks and for a change from recent it looks like it is!


https://forums.groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=193115

GC have just issued New guidelines. They seem quite a step down from the hard stance of late.

[Lactodorum]

Yes, I saw them earlier. I think they have come up with a very good change which will work well here in the UK and elsewhere around the world. I take my hat off to them and I think they deserve our thanks.

[FollowMeChaps]

Good Morning Folks and for a change from recent it looks like it is!


https://forums.groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=193115

GC have just issued New guidelines. They seem quite a step down from the hard stance of late.

Is anyone going to post this on the UK forum?

[sTeamTraen]

Having been involved with the drafting of the new wording of the "Commercial Cache" guidelines (less so the "Forum" guidelines), I'm pleased that they seem to have hit the spot.

You may have noticed the words "principal and substantial" in front of "intent of soliciting customers". These words are designed to allow you to say, within reason, that 'the Coach and Horses is a nice pub 200 yards from the cache' without having to pretend that you're just talking about the architecture of the building. On the other hand you probably don't want to list their full menu of organic bar snacks, or mention that they are affiliated with the CountryPubCo™ chain, an exciting new leisure concept combining traditional country pubs with underwater karaoke, etc.

There is also some wording which on the face of it looks pretty vague ("in some events, for example, it may make sense to do so"), but which will give the reviewers plenty of leeway to say, if you need to mention the name of an event venue, you can. The word "some" could be replaced by "pretty well all", but I like it the way Jenn wrote it. (Americans are not always the most prodigious users of understatement, but when they do it right it can be very effective. The line about "non-profit locations are often granted an exception" is another example.)

Both of the above have been in the works for some time, regardless of the current UK issues. They are subjects which have been intensively discussed among the volunteers. The paragraph in Jenn's post which mentions "jumping through hoops" gives an idea of what some of that discussion was about.

One of the intentions of the new guidelines is to allow the reviewers and moderators a set of guidelines whereby they can reasonably say to Groundspeak "this is allowed, this is not considered excessively solicitous where we are". Thus, regional flexibility is being given a sort of nod, but hopefully without the need for people in Nebraska to get too upset.

[Lactodorum]

I was surprised and delighted at the way the new guidelines are worded. All credit to those involved.

[dodgydaved]

Yes, I saw them earlier. I think they have come up with a very good change which will work well here in the UK and elsewhere around the world. I take my hat off to them and I think they deserve our thanks.

What the Victorian looking copper said.

All credit to GSP that they were able to accept a change was needed and then make it.

[amberel]

There is also some wording which on the face of it looks pretty vague ("in some events, for example, it may make sense to do so"), but which will give the reviewers plenty of leeway to say, if you need to mention the name of an event venue, you can. The word "some" could be replaced by "pretty well all", but I like it the way Jenn wrote it. (Americans are not always the most prodigious users of understatement, but when they do it right it can be very effective...)
I hear what you say about understatement, but I'm afraid I think they've chosen exactly the wrong place to use it. In this particular case they need to say what they mean. They appear to be vague in the guideline itself and then explain what they mean in the accompanying text. Why couldn't they just have made it clear in the guideline? Leaving it vague just gives scope for the whole thing to blow up again in a couple of years.

That said, I don't want to be too negative because it is a huge improvement over what they had been enforcing prior to the announcement, and it's just a crying shame that we had to lose Ecky and Lacto in the process of getting there :(

Rgds, Andy

[Muggle]

What the Victorian looking copper said.

All credit to GSP that they were able to accept a change was needed and then make it.

Rather a shame though that two respected reviewers and moderators had to fall on their swords in order to get things changed.

Any chance of a change of heart from the grumpy git and the short, fat one?

a.

[Jaz666]

Any chance of a change of heart from the grumpy git and the short, fat one?

a.

If I was in their shoes, I would be taking my time over such a decision.

Whilst is would be fantastic for the UK caching community to have the team back together again, we have to remember that this is now the second time that Peter and Dave have been let down by GSP (in public at least). Would we really wish to see them put in that position again?

I hope at the very least that both have received a private apology from GSP over the way the situation was handled.

One thought has struck me, as the new guidelines are pretty much "business as usual", the vast majority of UK cachers are probably never going to know that anything happened, beyond a new set of names publishing their caches (if things still are going down that road).

[nobbynobbs]

nothing could have made me happier outcome wise :)

[Brenin Tegeingl]

First off I'd like to thank Miss Jenn not only for the hard work she has put into bringing about the Guideline changes. Especially as the final wording which was tweaked with the help of the Reviewer community, and the subsequent finalizing and posting to the forums[including the reply to Nobbys letter]. Saw her still in the office well after clocking off time in order to as make best use of the time differences around the world, to give all Reviewers a opportunity to provide input on the final tweaking of the Guideline revisions.

Deci

On a personal note I personally believe that the relaxation of the Guidelines, has come very close to the way the UK has been Reviewed for the last six years. This will be of great benefit to the Global Community, by allowing the local Reviewers to use judgment based on what will work for their local community whilst remaining within the Guidelines.

I'd also like to personally thank Miss Jenn for her patience and understanding over the fact that she has been the target of peoples anger. I personally hope those who made her the target of their anger, will now take the opportunity to personally thank her and more importantly apologize to her!

Dave

[studlyone]

Here, here. I think that in the end it has been a very well balanced reply and change to the guidlines that have obviously had a lot of work put in it from within groundspeak and the reviewer community at large.

I would like to thank Miss Jenn and Mtn-Man for the way that they handled themselves, both did a good job of keeping cool whilst under some pretty heavy criticism at times. Alls well that ends well (except we are down two of the finest reviewers out there). Now lets get out there caching again - especially as this week is this years sunny one :)

[FollowMeChaps]

..........I personally hope those who made her the target of their anger, will now take the opportunity to personally thank her and more importantly apologize to her!

Dave


A very good point Dave. I've done exactly that although thankfully I never made her the target of my anger; it was Groundspeak where I went for the jugular!

[kewfriend]

Kewfriend is very pleased with the outcome. I'd always found Jenn easy to deal with, even when we did not see eye to eye.

Kewfriend will try to encapsulate the new camaraderie in an appropriate way. he's working on it.