Muggled TBs and geocoins on Ebay

[Mrs Blorenge]

With reference to Nobby Nobbs's pinned Topic about this matter, I thought folks might like to see the most recent occurance of this happening - Thread on GC.com Travel Bug Forum (https://forums.groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=204985&hl=Ebay).

Post #11 with the response from Ebay is interesting.

Let's hope there's a happy end result.

[studlyone]

Hopefully they will find there way back into the open again and continue on their way. I'd have been interested in seeing the e-bay listing in question as it beggars belief that a geocacher would put them up for sale knowing what they were.

Anyone buying something like this on e-bay is just encouraging people to steal TBs/Geocoins to sell on. Its certainly left me wondering whether any more 'lost' TBs or coins will turn up on e-bay in the future.

e-bays response was quite usefull although how much interest would be shown to a listing like that from the UK police if it involved anyone on here is another matter.

Fingers crossed that they make it to frredom again though.

[nobbynobbs]

Well the idea of the pinned topic was so that all such threads could be closed and the person directed to how to deal with the matter.
This was because of the inevitable angst that occurs and numerous emails being sent to the seller, who then becomes very anti.

[studlyone]

Agreed and the pinned thread is a good one. It was interesting to see how that one panned out - it appears that the dust has blown over now. I can see how things could quickly degenerate on threads like that. I remember the incident that pre-empted the pinned topic.

[Mrs Blorenge]

If you scroll down a bit on this link to Ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=320306124449&Category=149941&_trksid=p3907.m29) you'll be able to see the listing.

[jacobite]

Wouldn't it be wise to adopt a policy of always reporting a suspected stolen tackable to Ebay, and to the police? If this were the case, then Ebay would surely pay more attention to these items in the long run?

The more that can be done to deter the disreputable Ebayer from openly selling stolen trackables, the less desirable these items become to them.

[jacobite]

After having another look at the listing, the names on the bidders list looks very suspicious! Edit: Is that away for Ebay to protect the identity of the unsuccessful bidders?
Is there a way to politely inform the winning bidder that they have just purchased stolen property?

[drifter]

I am really new to geocaching and was interested in this post. I am really not sure that anything stached outside would remain the property of the cacher especially since its position is advertised for people to find. I think "Finders keepers" would seem to apply and I think it would be very petty to involve the police in any case of missing goodies.
I think as geocaching catches on then more thought will have to be given to how the game is played and who can play.

[Bear and Ragged]

I am really not sure that anything stached outside would remain the property of the cacher especially since its position is advertised for people to find. I think "Finders keepers" would seem to apply and I think it would be very petty to involve the police in any case of missing goodies.
So, if I 'find' your car in a car park I can keep it?! :D

[drifter]

So, if I 'find' your car in a car park I can keep it?! :D
Perhaps if you were a rich cacher you might leave a car. Do you report as stolen the "Toys" that you generally find in caches? Some of the goodies I have found in caches are worth more than geocoins. I would not report a stolen pensil sharpener! I don't think there will ever be a big market in stolen geocoins or caches.

[Palujia]

There are legal problems to both arguements.
1. Property - under the theft act definitions (which all young constables learned by rote) the value of the property is not the key-1p or £10000 makes no difference it is the taking of the property - "belonging to another" which is the offence.
2. The other side is the defence - which is the difficult part, certainly in regard to geocoins. It is the intention of some placers of these coins in caches that they "travel" and others get the enjoyment of seeing them and passing them on. However some coins are placed with the intention of the finder "keeping" them (assuming the rights of an owner - under the theft act). In case one the original owner is still the owner and anyone "keeping", or realising them (selling them etc.,) commits theft. in case two
no theft occurs as the original owner gives them freely. The theft act goes on in much proxility and profusion but the gist of the above is to make sure of the status of any coins you collect. Keepers or passers on !!
Travel bugs always remain the property of the original owner (as the intention is not for someone else to keep them or sell them) but I doubt that in the present climate the CPS (Crown prosecution service) would go for it (not withstanding the offence may be "complete"- all parts of the act being satisfied etc.,)as prosecutions cost lots and there are too many major cases being "shelved"due to lack of cash in this day and age.
Clear as mud !!

cheers :dunno::dunno:

[drifter]

I think Palujia has summed up the problem well. We are, after all, involved in a game of hide and seek and I don't think it is proper to get the law involved in a game. The car analogy is a good one. If you were to cache a car with the keys in it and then invite the general public to find it and subsequently report it stolen then I think the police or courts would accuse you of being irresponsible.
What is the best way forward?
Perhaps geocoins should be banned.
Perhaps geocoins should only be placed in caches with a 5 star rating
Perhaps geocoins should be limited in value to say, under £1, to make them not worth stealing.
Perhaps geocoins should only be placed in premium member caches

[Mrs Blorenge]

I think Palujia has summed up the problem well. We are, after all, involved in a game of hide and seek and I don't think it is proper to get the law involved in a game. The car analogy is a good one. If you were to cache a car with the keys in it and then invite the general public to find it and subsequently report it stolen then I think the police or courts would accuse you of being irresponsible.
What is the best way forward?
Perhaps geocoins should be banned.
Perhaps geocoins should only be placed in caches with a 5 star rating
Perhaps geocoins should be limited in value to say, under £1, to make them not worth stealing.
Perhaps geocoins should only be placed in premium member caches

There's no need for any other rules about geocoins and trackables as long as their owners understand and accept the fact that in releasing any trackable item to travel they are taking a gamble: Their item having a very long and happy journey V. their item disappearing from the first cache they drop it into... most get some payback between these two extremes. ;)

Most owner who release these items understand that and are fully accepting of the risk. For them the pleasure of owning a 'lucky' trackable that covers thousands of miles and passes through the hands of good, helpful cachers outweighs the disappointment of those that go MIA for one reason or another.

[drifter]

I agree with what you are saying Mrs Blorenge but that is not really what Nobby Nobbs's pinned Topic about this matter is saying and that pinned topic is the one that all members of this list will read first. It has also occured to me that it is more likely that geocachers that are taking (stealing) these coins rather than muggles.
Perhaps rather than changing the rules advice could be given about the risks involved in placing geocoins. It would be interesting to know how many coins go missing and whether there are any hot spots.

[Mrs Blorenge]

Nobby's pinned topic addresses the issue of what to do if you find stolen geocoins being sold on Ebay, a matter which was a bit of a hot topic two years ago. Since then I've only heard of a couple of similar questionable geocoin sales on Ebay - You can find more information and discussion about geocoins "disappearing" (for various reasons) on the Groundspeak Geocoin Discussion forum. (https://forums.groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showforum=44)

My impression (and it's only my impression, from reading the forums) is that geocoins disappear from caches much faster in USA than here in UK and Europe. My feeling is that in UK the main reasons for geocoins disappearing are (a) very new cachers taking them thinking they're a swap item and (b) general cache muggling when the whole box gets lifted.

We have a "resident" geocoin that's supposed to live permanently in a nearby cache. A few months ago visitors to the cache reported that the coin was no longer there...
Today it was returned to me at our home: The cacher had found it on a shelf in her son's bedroom when she was cleaning. When she asked him where he found it he said, "It was in one of the caches we did so I swapped it..." When she checked the details from its tracking number she realised what it was and that it shouldn't have been removed, she contacted us by email with profuse apologies and brought it back today.

A "happy ending" to a missing geocoin story. :)

[nobbynobbs]

here's a quick analogy. in london they have bikes that are left and you hire. you do not assume rights of ownship at any time and if you fail to return it you commit an offence.

theft by finding is a law and finders keeeprs is not.

normal theft act. dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving them of it.

a normal person removing it and placing it in another cache does not commit an act of dishonesty, does not appropriate property and has no intention of permanently depriving them.

a thief. removes it knowing that they intend to sell or keep the said coin hence knows he /she is committing an act of dishonesty. by that act they appropriate it and intend to permanently deprive the real owner.

that help?

[Happy Humphrey]

Just for perspective...

I've just been checking my released trackables - 121 of them. I've been through the first 40 so far (it's a bit time-consuming), and only 16 haven't (yet!) been stolen. A few of those are back with me anyway.

I've still got many more to check yet, but at that rate, about 60% get nicked. Say they cost about £7 each on average including postage (many more, many less), I've had about £500 worth of goods stolen. :mad:

I appreciate that I've put them in risky situations, but it's disappointing that there are so many thieves out there; many seem to be geocachers who simply keep the trackables. Sometimes unintentional, possibly, but disappointing even so.

[Palujia]

This is always going to be a problem - especially with the more attractive ones. It is a voyage of "travelling hopefully" when setting a bug/coin free.
You hope its going to be passed from cache to cache for all to enjoy. My first couple disappeared without trace from the first cache I put them in - one has now re-appeared after a three month absence which is really great. But being realistic all you can do is hope that the cacher that picks one up is honest and committed to the cause. Not withstanding the caches that get muggled or GROEPed. Or, as has been suggested - the "laminated card" route which would, in my humble opinion, be a retrograde step. I shall continue to put out bugs and coins and pass on those I collect (and feel good about myself for doing it!!!)