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Thread: Fooot and Marf

  1. #1
    Rebble Guest

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    Okay so here's a question.

    With the latest F&M outbreak any advice what to do in the event some landowner decides to block access to footpaths, bridleways and other rights of way?

    Should we ignore illegal denial or comply just to keep the peace?

    Who do you report access denial to?

    Or are we all in de Nile

    :lol: (sorry had to slip that one in)

  2. #2

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    From the Ramblers' Association website:

    "Reports should be made to the relevant highway authority (county, unitary, metropolitan, London, national park) in England or Wales. Mark your letter for the attention of the 'Public Rights of Way Officer'."

    My personal view is that if I was just walking in the countryside, not caching, I would ignore illegal denial and carry on. If I was caching, though, I'd probably leave the cache for the time being, on the offchance that I might be discovered at the cache site and then that would probably be a cache removed for good. Either way, though, I'd report the illegal denial.
    ​​Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light. (Dylan Thomas)​


  3. #3
    nobbynobbs Guest

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    yeah i'm with bill on this one. keep on walking, don't cache and then report....

  4. #4
    Third-Degree-Witch Guest

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    Im involved in farming and can understand why some farmers are taking steps to protect their livestock.Please remember the pitiful response by the goverment back in 2001 . Hundreds of thousands of animals were slaughtered through inaction by this inept shower,Both the current goverment and Defra.Now it appears that eithier a goverment body or a goverment employed company has released the virus it hardly instills confidence within the farming community does it ?.
    So report such infractions by farmers by all means but just spare a thought for the farmers and understand their motives,watching your whole herd shot n burned is no fun......

  5. #5

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    TDW, I agree absolutely that the way things were handled in 2001 was poor, to say the least. I think what's been said above, though, is more about a minority of landowners possibly taking advantage of the present situation to unwarrantedly close paths than about farmers taking sensible precautions. If I felt that a footpath had been closed with good reason then I certainly wouldn't use it.
    ​​Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light. (Dylan Thomas)​


  6. #6
    Third-Degree-Witch Guest

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    Why would they'unwarrantedly' close paths ?....i will tell you why..its because the farmers have NO faith n the goverment and the joke called Defra...they gave us NO up to date information last time and NO help eithier..So i dont blame them helping themselves..We are in Hertfordshire,well outside the quarantine zone and yet have installed tyre dips and foot dips in an effort to stop the possible spread of this ghastly disease...Surrey is no distance from anywhere in the country.Time to be a bit more understanding i think bill and not get to uppity about ones rights to walk freely when theres a crisis occuring.

  7. #7
    Rebble Guest

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    Originally posted by Third-Degree-Witch@Aug 8 2007, 07:00 AM
    Im involved in farming and can understand why some farmers are taking steps to protect their livestock.Please remember the pitiful response by the goverment back in 2001 . Hundreds of thousands of animals were slaughtered through inaction by this inept shower,Both the current goverment and Defra.Now it appears that eithier a goverment body or a goverment employed company has released the virus it hardly instills confidence within the farming community does it ?.
    So report such infractions by farmers by all means but just spare a thought for the farmers and understand their motives,watching your whole herd shot n burned is no fun......
    Cheer Bill & Nobbs for the advice.

    Sorry TDW I wasn't after a comment about the Govt. et al it wasn't a political question.

    Anyhow only one half the site is Govt. financed the other half is run by an American firm (None Govt.) so if they are guilty (not proven at the mo.) I can't see how the Govt. would be to blame.

    Any how as I re-call the last outbreak was caused by a farmer feeding his pigs with illegally imported Chinese meat. I just don't go with the big bad Govt. routine.

    They only had the 1966 outbreak as an example to work on.

    Oh and by the by in 2001 I was well aware from personal contact (in the farming community) that some (but not all) farmers were deliberately sending infected fluids to each other in order to infect their herds and cash in on the compo. The old wipe a handkerchief round the cows mouth bung it in a jiffy bag and post it to a mate routine.


    C'est la vie

  8. #8
    Third-Degree-Witch Guest

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    hve u got solid proof of that ?

  9. #9

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    Third-Degree-Witch wrote:
    Why would they'unwarrantedly' close paths ?
    Well, I'm afraid some do. For example there's a farm near Devizes where a right of way runs across the middle of a field. Some years the farmer sows some large bushy crop (I don't know what it is) over the whole field. As the crop grows it completely blocks the right of way. Every time this happens someone reports it, the council Rights of Way officer threatens action, and then the farmer reluctantly cuts a path through the crop.

    Why does he do it? Because he doesn't want people walking on his land, even though it's a right of way they're walking on. He's well known locally as a right pain-in-the-*rse.

    There's another farm south of Salisbury where a right of way runs diagonally across a field. Most summers the whole field has a crop covering the right of way. As it happens there are a number of other routes one can take to bypass that, but it's still an unwarranted closure.

    Third-Degree-Witch wrote:
    Time to be a bit more understanding i think bill and not get to uppity about ones rights to walk freely when theres a crisis occuring.
    I fail to see how you can construe anything I've said in this thread as being "uppity". The original post was about illegal denial of access, and that's what I've responded to.
    ​​Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light. (Dylan Thomas)​


  10. #10
    nobbynobbs Guest

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    and let's not forget that even if the footpaths get closed deer and other wildlife can't read.....

  11. #11
    Third-Degree-Witch Guest

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    We will have to agree to disagree i think

  12. #12
    keehotee Guest

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    For example there's a farm near Devizes where a right of way runs across the middle of a field. Some years the farmer sows some large bushy crop (I don't know what it is) over the whole field. As the crop grows it completely blocks the right of way. Every time this happens someone reports it, the council Rights of Way officer threatens action, and then the farmer reluctantly cuts a path through the crop.
    Is this a new farm - or land that has been farmed for years? If the latter, it may be that a previous farmer had either a different crop, or livestock in that field when a path was established, and so walking across wasn't an issue. The fact that a beaurocrat has now decided that the definitive right of way goes straight across the field should not absolve walkers of using common sense and walking around the edge, or deny the farmer using his own land to earn a living in whatever way.....

    (gets ready to duck and run)

  13. #13

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    Originally posted by keehotee@Aug 9 2007, 12:50 PM
    For example there's a farm near Devizes where a right of way runs across the middle of a field. Some years the farmer sows some large bushy crop (I don't know what it is) over the whole field. As the crop grows it completely blocks the right of way. Every time this happens someone reports it, the council Rights of Way officer threatens action, and then the farmer reluctantly cuts a path through the crop.
    Is this a new farm - or land that has been farmed for years? If the latter, it may be that a previous farmer had either a different crop, or livestock in that field when a path was established, and so walking across wasn't an issue. The fact that a beaurocrat has now decided that the definitive right of way goes straight across the field should not absolve walkers of using common sense and walking around the edge, or deny the farmer using his own land to earn a living in whatever way.....

    (gets ready to duck and run)
    The farm and the farmer have been there for years, and so has the right of way. The farmer is a frequent topic of conversation in the local pub, which probably says it all... Yes, it's possible to walk around the edge of the field, if you don't mind being stopped by the farmer with a shotgun in his hand, something which has happened to a number of locals including a friend of mine - they have of course reported the incidents to the police, but it's one person's word against another so no action gets taken.
    ​​Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light. (Dylan Thomas)​


  14. #14

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    Third-Degree-Witch wrote:
    We will have to agree to disagree i think
    Agreed, lol...!
    ​​Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light. (Dylan Thomas)​


  15. #15
    Rebble Guest

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    Originally posted by Third-Degree-Witch@Aug 8 2007, 07:20 PM
    hve u got solid proof of that ?
    Sorry TDW I can see where this is going, as to do I have proof I'll have to go drag the farmers in question to the computer but seeing as they live in Devon and I don't currently it's going to take time.

    Mine was a simple question concerning the possibility that illegal access denial might take place so I was looking for advice on what I could do.

    If I had known this simple question would turn in to a C.A. rant against the current administration I wouldn't have bothered.

    Drop the seige mentality the Govt. conisists of human beings and QED they can not please you or most of the people all of the time. At least this time they acted quickly and decisively.

    You may as well blame the Govt. for the July floods, or the Black Death or the death of the dinosaurs.

    "s**t" as they say happens.

    By the way which proof did you want? The 2001 outbreak was Type O Asian traced to a Cumbrian pig farmer who contrary to the regs. did not heat his swill which contained meat imported from China which he got from a Chinese restaurant. I bet the Govt. was to blame for that too (or was it the Chinese Govt? ^_^ ).

    P.S. I re-call 2001 being the year where I put the Mountain Bike in the shed for months, hung my boots and indulged in other activities so I believe did thousands of other people. So don't give us the old farmers have to protect themselves routine.

    Farmers had a lot of sympathy from the people and compo. from the Govt. then and I don't re-call the general populus going out of their way to make farmers lives more difficult.

    P.P.S. The family's all farming stock too going back several generations (1380 as I recall).

  16. #16
    nobbynobbs Guest

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    Originally posted by keehotee@Aug 9 2007, 12:50 PM
    For example there's a farm near Devizes where a right of way runs across the middle of a field. Some years the farmer sows some large bushy crop (I don't know what it is) over the whole field. As the crop grows it completely blocks the right of way. Every time this happens someone reports it, the council Rights of Way officer threatens action, and then the farmer reluctantly cuts a path through the crop.
    Is this a new farm - or land that has been farmed for years? If the latter, it may be that a previous farmer had either a different crop, or livestock in that field when a path was established, and so walking across wasn't an issue. The fact that a beaurocrat has now decided that the definitive right of way goes straight across the field should not absolve walkers of using common sense and walking around the edge, or deny the farmer using his own land to earn a living in whatever way.....

    (gets ready to duck and run)
    there is a problem with this suggestion. while walking through a crop you are within the law as you are on a right of way.

    how i understand it , if you ( albeit being sensible and so on) walk around the edge of the field you're technically trespassing and said farmer then does have the right to ask you to leave. note ask not force in any way.

    if in doubt take some photos....

  17. #17
    Roving Rangies Guest

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    Ok so here goes.... it was legally excepted the 8 foot each side of a bywya or similar are with the bounds of it being public access, anything off that and you are trespassing, so to divert around a field and not walk across it means you are liable to be prosicuted or taken to court.

    There are many lanes south of Salisbury that have been re-badged, this is not the case, if its a footpath marked on the map etc, then its a fotpath, if its a bridle way marked on the map, thats what it is and so on for bywyas. Rupps marked on maps are the only ones that have changed. However, there are some Rupps which are in the process of being up-graded, some have made it already but still badged as Rupps!

    For full details contact Barbara at Wiltshire County Council Rights of Way.

  18. #18

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    Have a look at Geocacheing Resources Hosted by Lactodorum you'll find a document that covers the basics of RoW's and the CRoW Act (Open Access) and does mention the issue of a Farmer planting over or ploughing over a RoW.

    Disclaimer before anyone tries to sue the author :huh: It is only a guide and not a legal document :P
    My post is my personal opinion and as such you do not have my permission to quote me outside of these forums!

    Dave
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    Formerly known as Mancunian Pyrocacher on GC

  19. #19
    keehotee Guest

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    Farmers can also apply for a "Temporary Diversion for Agricultural Purposes".

  20. #20
    nobbynobbs Guest

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    and if they have been granted it they are obliged to clearly show that notice as well as clear signs to show which way the path now goes. so in that event there should be no confusion.

  21. #21
    Roving Rangies Guest

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    Originally posted by keehotee@Aug 10 2007, 02:25 PM
    Farmers can also apply for a "Temporary Diversion for Agricultural Purposes".
    Not many farmers do apply for the temporay diversion, they just take the law into thier own hands!!
    I know some farmer who have had rights of way on thier land for donkey's years putting gates up with padlocks and a sign Danger Bull in field and then meeting you with a nice..."get off my land you townie" attitude,

    1. he has no right to put locked gates up across the rights of way. This is council owned property.
    2. he can not stop you from going down a public right of way unless the signs are correctly displayed and issued by the Rights of way department of the county council only.
    3. Dangerous animals are suppose to be restrained and kept in a confined area and not in the open countryside.
    4. If the farmer does try to stop you due to threats or force, he is breaking the law, as the only people that can impose that kind of stopping, is the Police. NO ONE else has the right to do so.

    Wales is about the only place where you can roam freely and not be stopped and questioned! Stopped yes! thats usually to offer you a nice cream tea as you go past. Sometimes they even welcome you to go down rights of ways, and ask you to let them know when you get to the end if you hae seen anything they should know about.

    Such is life!!

  22. #22
    keehotee Guest

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    Growing up in a very rural community, I have to admit that I'm usually with the farmers on this issue.
    Most of the contentious byways in this country were established decades or centuries ago, by local people using a path to get about. When this was half a dozen villagers crossing a field to get to a market there wasn't a problem. The farmer was selling at the market - it was in his own interests not to argue, and the locals had enough sense to go another way if it wasn't possible to cross a field. Unfortunately, with the growth of political lobbies like The Ramblers Association, and the use of the countryside (most of it's only still "countryside" because the farmers look after it) for leisure purposes, these rights of way are being enforced and not used for their original purposes. We now have a "right" to use these paths - whether we've earned it or not - and s*d everybody else.....
    Farmers are businessmen - they rely on the land to make a living - and we rely on it to eat. No farmer is going to deliberately plant a crop or change the use of a field just to spite a few walkers or cachers.
    To look at it another way - if somebody owned a lump of land in the city - and decided to use it as a car park. People would use it as a shortcut, establishing a path.
    If the landowner then built houses on the land, how many of us would insist on still using the same shortcut - across the gardens? (And yes - I know there are some people who insist on being able to walk everywhere there's a right of way - just for the sake of using a right of way)
    Roaming freely is NOT the same thing as insisting on using a ROW because it's there. If the countryside were really open, how many people would insist on crossing a crop filled field that didn't take them where they needed to go?

  23. #23
    keehotee Guest

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    he has no right to put locked gates up across the rights of way. This is council owned property.
    Only rights of way on council owned land are council owned property....... local councils enforce rights of way - they don't usually own the land they're on.

  24. #24
    nobbynobbs Guest

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    Originally posted by keehotee@Aug 11 2007, 09:58 AM
    No farmer is going to deliberately plant a crop or change the use of a field just to spite a few walkers or cachers.
    sadly, they all too often do just that.

    the trouble is that the two main groups involved in this, landowners and the ramblers, are often too busy arguing the toss to actually resolve this the quick and easy way.

    it's not impossible to get rights of way moved it just gets objected to by a vociferous minority. so then farmers do daft stuff like block paths with gates, barbed wire, crops or worse.
    like most problems once it gets anywhere near a court all hell breaks out and the lawyers make sure that it gets more complicated after all they have to eat as well.... :angry:

    a new type of court is needed. a backroom of the local pub. the landlord is the guy in charge. all parties need to drink a few pints and then they sit down and have a chat to resolve it

    until then you will still get too many incidents of idiots on both sides.

    but ignoring inconvenient old laws just because it's easier to not obey them is not the answer.

  25. #25
    keehotee Guest

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    the trouble is that the two main groups involved in this, landowners and the ramblers, are often too busy arguing the toss to actually resolve this the quick and easy way.

    it's not impossible to get rights of way moved it just gets objected to by a vociferous minority
    It happened when I was growing up.
    There was a path that we used to use to get to a local river - the river was on private land, but we had permission to fish there.
    The farmer closed the path for a while - we didn't mind - we knew him, there were other paths we could use - and as far as we knew we and the farmer were the only ones to ever use it anyway.
    However - he was prosecuted (by people unknown to me at the time) for illegally closing the path. Nobody locally had objected.

    The RA are great when you have a problem and they can intervene on your behalf - but all too often they don't act on anybody's behalf but their own.

    In case you couldn't tell, I'm no supporter of the RA - since they sided with the Pony Club and tried to get mountain biking banned on Dartmoor.

  26. #26
    nobbynobbs Guest

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    this is the trouble when the law gets in the way of common sense. and those individuals without common sense.

    at the end of the day it should be that a farmer can plant his fields and then if you are following a path you automatically, within the law, go around the edge.

    but the idiots in the RA would just plough straight through and the militant famers would chase you off for tresspass.


    similar situation in the new forest where you can't ride a bike anywhere but their designated routes, sod the fact that you either have to drive or ride on very busy roads to get to them. plus the fact that the horses and cattle do far more damage than a bike would.... but the verderers know best.....


    we get so little time here i just can't understand why so many people spend so much of it either looking for things to be annoyed about or remaining annoyed about things that are in the past.



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