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Thread: A Geocaching listing site for the UK

  1. #1
    Birdman-of-liskatraz Guest

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    I'm not sure - but it has to be worth some discussion. What do people think?

  2. #2

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    The way things are going it could happen. A UK version of Navicache?

    Jon

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    There was an attempt at this years ago, when similar problems blew up. It seems to have died a death though.

    The Philimore Clan says the site was http://geocaching.org.uk/ but it is now dead.

    Lisa

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    Could be worth a try !

    I wonder if we can persuade Lactodorum and Eckington to be reviewers h34r:

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    Just a question does anybody know who Nigel Knapton from York is ?



    Because he is the owner of http://www.geocaching.co.uk which forwards to http://www.geocaching.com h34r:

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    The name certainly rings a bell, it's stuck up in the rapidly aging grey matter at the moment though.

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    http://www.rsgb-region-4.org.uk/team.php?team_id=36

    Probably doesn't help much though!

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    Well, minstrelcat's link is to a regional manager for the Radio Society of Great Britain, and many cachers are ham radio enthusiasts...
    ​​Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light. (Dylan Thomas)​


  10. #10

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    Originally posted by minstrelcat+Apr 24 2008, 08:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (minstrelcat &#064; Apr 24 2008, 08:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> http://www.rsgb-region-4.org.uk/team.php?team_id=36

    Probably doesn&#39;t help much though&#33; [/b]


    <!--QuoteBegin-Bill D (wwh)
    @Apr 24 2008, 08:41 PM
    Well, minstrelcat&#39;s link is to a regional manager for the Radio Society of Great Britain, and many cachers are ham radio enthusiasts...[/quote]

    As am I and that is the same guy

    He also has http://www.triode.org.uk/ registered in his name h34r:

  11. #11
    moote01 Guest

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    Well the way things are going on GC.com and the attitude of the Groundspeak Inc, I&#39;m happy to put time and effort into an alternative.

    Moote

  12. #12
    Birdman-of-liskatraz Guest

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    Is a Radio Ham too... G7BIM

    and a little birdie whispered the appropriate email address.. so I&#39;ve asked if the domain could be made available.


    Steve

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    Originally posted by Birdman&#045;of&#045;liskatraz@Apr 24 2008, 09:05 PM
    Is a Radio Ham too... G7BIM

    and a little birdie whispered the appropriate email address.. so I&#39;ve asked if the domain could be made available.


    Steve
    According to the link he is Nigel Knapton G1JKE Deputy Regional Manager for North Yorkshire.

    not G7BIM :

  14. #14
    Birdman-of-liskatraz Guest

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    Originally posted by matrix+Apr 24 2008, 09:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (matrix @ Apr 24 2008, 09:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Birdman&#045;of&#045;liskatraz@Apr 24 2008, 09:05 PM
    Is a Radio Ham too... G7BIM

    and a little birdie whispered the appropriate email address.. so I&#39;ve asked if the domain could be made available.


    Steve
    According to the link he is Nigel Knapton G1JKE Deputy Regional Manager for North Yorkshire.

    not G7BIM : [/b][/quote]
    No - Me - The Birdman of Liskatraz is G7BIM....

  15. #15

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    Originally posted by Birdman&#045;of&#045;liskatraz@Apr 24 2008, 09:10 PM
    No - Me - The Birdman of Liskatraz is G7BIM....
    DOH

    Apologies de Mike GW7ODP

  16. #16
    Birdman-of-liskatraz Guest

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    Something just crossed my mind... in a previous life, I worked for The Scout Association at National level..

    Each Country ran it&#39;s own affairs, but still stuck to the same basic fundamental principles... and all belonged to the World Organisation of the Scout Movement based in Geneva.

    Maybe Geocaching has reached a stage where larger Countries need to be given some autonomy in running their own affairs yet still belonging within some International Geocaching Framework.


    Just a thought.

  17. #17
    Lactodorum Guest

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    Originally posted by matrix@Apr 24 2008, 08:26 PM
    Just a question does anybody know who Nigel Knapton from York is ?



    Because he is the owner of http://www.geocaching.co.uk which forwards to http://www.geocaching.com h34r:
    No, but I know who owns www.geocache.co.uk

  18. #18
    Lactodorum Guest

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    Originally posted by Birdman&#045;of&#045;liskatraz@Apr 24 2008, 09:26 PM
    Something just crossed my mind... in a previous life, I worked for The Scout Association at National level..

    Each Country ran it&#39;s own affairs, but still stuck to the same basic fundamental principles... and all belonged to the World Organisation of the Scout Movement based in Geneva.

    Maybe Geocaching has reached a stage where larger Countries need to be given some autonomy in running their own affairs yet still belonging within some International Geocaching Framework.


    Just a thought.
    Funny you should say that. Why didn&#39;t I suggest that to TPTB? Oh yes, I did

  19. #19
    Birdman-of-liskatraz Guest

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    I&#39;ll shut up now I think....

  20. #20
    pklong Guest

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    Count me in too if we are considering an alternative listing site. A little competition is never a bad thing.

    Philip

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    Originally posted by Lactodorum+Apr 24 2008, 10:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lactodorum @ Apr 24 2008, 10:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-matrix@Apr 24 2008, 08:26 PM
    Just a question does anybody know who Nigel Knapton from York is ?



    Because he is the owner of http://www.geocaching.co.uk which forwards to http://www.geocaching.com h34r:
    No, but I know who owns www.geocache.co.uk [/b][/quote]
    So you do h34r:

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    Are we talking about an alternative site, or a replacement one?

    If it&#39;s the latter then what would happen to all the present cache listings currently hosted by GC.com?
    Who owns the listing (not the cache)? Is it GC or the cache setter, and are there any copyright issues?
    Presumably UK cache owners have to re-enter all their cache info on the new site since GC would be reluctant to "release" the present data.

    Just thoughts and musings on my part.
    Try not to let your mind wander...........
    It's too small and fragile to be out by itself

  23. #23

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    I would say that whilst you have control of the text on the page you can consider it yours, theres nothing stopping you changing a cache page to near blank

  24. #24

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    Originally posted by thekennelat79@Apr 24 2008, 10:20 PM
    Are we talking about an alternative site, or a replacement one?

    If it&#39;s the latter then what would happen to all the present cache listings currently hosted by GC.com?
    Who owns the listing (not the cache)? Is it GC or the cache setter, and are there any copyright issues?
    Presumably UK cache owners have to re-enter all their cache info on the new site since GC would be reluctant to "release" the present data.

    Just thoughts and musings on my part.
    There would also be the issue of the total finds. Would everybody&#39;s finds be reset to zero? Would it be nn finds with Geocaching.com and nn finds with the uk site? Would they be able to transfer their finds over?

    Why set up a completely new site, would it not be easier to just switch over to Navicache? After all, they&#39;re competition/alternative that is already there.


    Just my two penneth

  25. #25
    scottpa100 Guest

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    Originally posted by Geotrotter@Apr 24 2008, 11:11 PM
    Why set up a completely new site, would it not be easier to just switch over to Navicache?
    I appreciate where you&#39;re coming from but we complain about the maps on geocaching.com.... have you seen Navicache? Its just old and clunky. And 3 caches within 50 miles...&#33;

    (My first post on GAGB&#33

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    Nigel goes under the cahing name of chipmunk, and he lives Easingwold (Nth Yorkshire) way. Not that that&#39;s relevant.

    I&#39;m sure that there several cachers who can develop web sites - Jamie (Jaz666) springs to mind as one.

    It&#39;s late and my eyes are tired so I might have missed it, but how would an independent listings site deal with trackables?

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    Originally posted by Birdman&#045;of&#045;liskatraz@Apr 24 2008, 07:28 PM
    I&#39;m not sure - but it has to be worth some discussion. What do people think?
    I think it&#39;s certainly worth discussion. But along with the things we might gain we shouldn&#39;t forget what we would lose.

    Groundspeak have a good system, and having most of the world covered by one database has to be an advantage. For people who have been caching for a long time, Groundspeak hold a lot of history. And consider that whatever we end up doing, it&#39;s always likely that many of us will disagree with certain aspects of that too - no way is everyone going to agree on every detail.

    The reasons for finding an alternative are that Groundspeak do at times appear to be somewhat autocratic, officious, inflexible, unresponsive and secretive. And I feel there is a good chance they will have difficulty in filling the vacant reviewer posts. I would grate on me to implement policies with which I disagree even if I was paid employee; I couldn&#39;t see me doing it as an unpaid volunteer. And if I had to do it without being free to express my disagreement with the policies I was implementing I would find it intolerable.

    The Aussie model looks quite good, but we appear to have two extremes - increasingly rigid control by Groundspeak or complete anarchy in Australia . Total freedom is not always a good thing.

    I&#39;m keeping an open mind for the time being, but I&#39;m certainly keeping an eye on the situation.

    Rgds, Andy

  28. #28

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    Originally posted by scottpa100+Apr 24 2008, 11:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (scottpa100 &#064; Apr 24 2008, 11:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Geotrotter@Apr 24 2008, 11:11 PM
    Why set up a completely new site, would it not be easier to just switch over to Navicache?
    I appreciate where you&#39;re coming from but we complain about the maps on geocaching.com.... have you seen Navicache? Its just old and clunky. And 3 caches within 50 miles...&#33;

    (My first post on GAGB&#33[/b][/quote]
    I agree with your comments re the quality of the site but would they not have an incentive to improve it if there were suddenly loads of caches being added?

    There might be only 3 in 50 mile at the moment but that&#39;s only because Lollybob and M0sgb don&#39;t go on there yet. :lol:

  29. #29
    Lactodorum Guest

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    Originally posted by amberel@Apr 24 2008, 11:44 PM
    Groundspeak have a good system, and having most of the world covered by one database has to be an advantage. For people who have been caching for a long time, Groundspeak hold a lot of history. And consider that whatever we end up doing, it&#39;s always likely that many of us will disagree with certain aspects of that too - no way is everyone going to agree on every detail.

    The reasons for finding an alternative are that Groundspeak do at times appear to be somewhat autocratic, officious, inflexible, unresponsive and secretive. And I feel there is a good chance they will have difficulty in filling the vacant reviewer posts. I would grate on me to implement policies with which I disagree even if I was paid employee; I couldn&#39;t see me doing it as an unpaid volunteer. And if I had to do it without being free to express my disagreement with the policies I was implementing I would find it intolerable.
    As the person who finds himself swept up in the middle of this storm (in a teacup?&#33 permit me to add my two penn&#39;orth. The comments about how Groundspeak operates is quite perceptive and is why we&#39;re in this position now. Equally valid is your comment about the quality of the site itself and the value of its database. With the best will in the world I can&#39;t see anyone coming up with anything comparable locally, at least not in the near future.

    My personal preference would be to concentrate our efforts to trying to change what we see is wrong with the way Groundspeak operates. I have seen mention of the worldwide scouting organisation with an overarching set of general principles but with regional bodies responsible for developing and operating locally relevant guidelines. To my mind this is what Groundspeak ought to be working towards and if it had shown a willingness to consider this sort of thing I would never have left.

    Although there are some very insular and self important people involved I believe that given persistence and logic they can be persuaded to change. This needs to be done in a cool and calm way and without resorting to some of the xenophobic insults that I&#39;ve seen over in the GC forums.

    We&#39;ll see

  30. #30

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    wise words as ever, but the Americans will fall into line and groundspeak will bury its head in the sand

    if another listing site was to transpire (is that the right word foir this time in the morning) I think it would be best set up under a charitable status so that no one owns it and is solely responsible for how it runs - a committee would have to be set up

    granted the database would not be as good but if the work was put into it over time it could be comparable

  31. #31

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    As the person who kick started the failed attempt to get a UK based listing site. I&#39;ll clear up a few points

    The domain name we used was allowed to by the registered owner, who retained ownership at all times. Hence the confusion now.

    As only one person [not me] was involved in the coding side of it and this person had a change in personal circumstances. That side of things stalled.

    Despite my best efforts to draw in the UK Community, the majority were not interested or sat on the fence. The project eventually stalled due to there being about 3 or 4 persons including me genuinely interested in it progressing.

    As Peter has stated the best way forward is to try to persuade Groundspeak to Regionalise the site to take account of the cultural differences.

    I&#39;m aware that several are working on the start of making a approach to Groundspeak over this. Information will be coming in the immediate future over this.

    Deci
    My post is my personal opinion and as such you do not have my permission to quote me outside of these forums!

    Dave
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    Formerly known as Mancunian Pyrocacher on GC

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    I haven&#39;t posted in any of the current debate but forgive me if I am missing something... :wacko:
    The main problem seems to be with the Merkins&#39; heavy handed attitude, closing threads in their forums. Moving our discussions over here seems to fix that problem.
    Is there really any problem with actually getting caches approved and using their database? If not, do we need to set up our own other than for the satisfaction of having nothing to do with them? :unsure:

  33. #33

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    Ive said for years that we should redirect posters on the GC forum to another one outside of GC control.

    This will pass and most people will fall back to the GC forum unless people keep on redirecting them elsewhere.

    For indepence sake i used to advocate GUK as it was also self moderated.

    As for alternative listing sites there is

    http://cacheopedia.com/wiki/Geocaching_Web...Caching_Network

    and of most interest

    http://devel.opencaching.de/index.php?locale=EN
    "If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning."

  34. #34

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    If only a small number of UK cachers frequent the GC.com forum, then I don&#39;t see how you can persuade most of the cachers to visit another site.

    At the moment, I think the cache listings should stay on GC.com, but use external forums, such as this one, for contraversial discussions. This way, we get to keep our stats, GC.com maintains the site (at their expense), and we can say what we want (within reason) here.

    Any links for further information from the cache/event page could be directed to a posting here, where the details of events and their &#39;commercial&#39; locations can be freely made.

    Ivan
    Paved Roads: Another fine example of unnecessary Government spending!

  35. #35
    [MF]taz Guest

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    Has anyone looked at www.terracaching.com they have a different approch to reviewing cache listings, they let the community do it.

    As far as I can tell each member is sponsered by someone, when they place a cache their sponsers review it and its published.

    They use a weird ranking system that gives you points depending on how highly ranked yor hides are I think your sponsers benifit from your points.

    It sounds self sustainable, unfortunatly not many caches in the UK... but perhaps that may be a good thing as we can start afresh.

    Or for those who are seriously considering setting up a competitive site to GC.com then they would be best to look at all of the competition.

    PS. My first post on here, but I already recognise quite a few of you

  36. #36
    pklong Guest

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    I have looked at the alternatives. Navicaching looks like it was designed in about 1999 and not updated since, Terracaching has a clear as mud design. There is no reason we couldn&#39;t do much better. Opencaching looks the best of the bunch, but needs translating.

    So there is plenty of scope for improvement.

    Philip

  37. #37
    pray4mojo Guest

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    Originally posted by ivanidea@Apr 25 2008, 11:28 AM
    At the moment, I think the cache listings should stay on GC.com, but use external forums, such as this one, for contraversial discussions. This way, we get to keep our stats, GC.com maintains the site (at their expense), and we can say what we want (within reason) here.
    I don&#39;t do a lot of posting in the current forum but have been reading what everyone has to say (with different amounts of agreement.) I think in the short term what "ivanidea" has to say would be the easiest to carry out. Sure some (many) aren&#39;t happy with gs or gc.com but with put up with it this long .

    With a separate UK wide forum to discuss things, away from GS prying eyes we have only our self to blame if things get out of hand. Also the problems involving "overly" commercial event cache listings, is there nothing to stop us linking from the cache page to a thread in the new forum with all the event discussion on?? (if there is a problem why not put the link in your profile and refer people attending your event to your profile)

    And when the new forum is up and running we can discuss if we need or how to go about making a new listing sites there. But use gc.com in the mean time (I still have alot of my subsciption to use up yet.)

    The new forum could be here or as some people don&#39;t agree with the GAGB idea and I&#39;m not sure if the people that run this site would want it to be used like that or not(do you??) it could be elsewhere.

    I don&#39;t have much (any) experience with holding events so I don&#39;t know if this would work, or much idea of the work/cost of setting up websites/forums but this is just my opinion on the matter. If no one agrees (and i get yelled at ) that is fine, least I feel I can freely express my views on here .

    Ben

  38. #38

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    There are a number of issues with setting up a Uk listing site as I see it:

    1. Cost - servers that can cope with a query heavy php/mysl site don&#39;t come free so the project would need to fund itself or have a benevolent sponsor.
    2. Developement - There is a wealth of programming design talent around who are involved in geocaching but it usually takes either a team of dedicated individuals to set up and run a site like that or you need to pay someone to do the programming/design work for you before taking on the running of it as volunteers.
    3. Advertising - Geocaching.com is definitely the daddy of cache listing sites and you would have to go head to head in the search engines to try to get the new site as much exposure as possible - this can be a double edged weapon though if the new site doen&#39;t have many caches listed.

    None of the above is unsurmountable but the question I ask myself is why go to the bother as the geocaching.com listing pages provide everything we need - for free, with only a few contentious problems.

    I think our efforts would be better placed either focussing on a UK forum (to vent in) and lobbying to get more regional devolution within geocaching.com organisation. I think that eventually they will realise that it is good for the pastime and therefore good for their bottom line at the end of the day.

    Jusy my ten peneth.
    "I Cache, therefore I am"

  39. #39

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    As long as people dont do members only caches the pay to play element would be removed.

    GC does a good listing service.

    Im sure given time we can circumvent the listing rules. Editing cache pages after publication, posting notes long hints, the user web page can be used to link off site.
    Bookmark lists.
    "If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning."

  40. #40
    pklong Guest

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    Originally posted by markandlynn@Apr 25 2008, 03:19 PM
    As long as people dont do members only caches the pay to play element would be removed.

    GC does a good listing service.

    Im sure given time we can circumvent the listing rules. Editing cache pages after publication, posting notes long hints, the user web page can be used to link off site.
    Bookmark lists.
    Sounds like a recipe for getting yourself banned to me.

  41. #41

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    Originally posted by pklong+Apr 25 2008, 03:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (pklong &#064; Apr 25 2008, 03:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-markandlynn@Apr 25 2008, 03:19 PM
    As long as people dont do members only caches the pay to play element would be removed.

    GC does a good listing service.

    Im sure given time we can circumvent the listing rules. Editing cache pages after publication, posting notes long hints, the user web page can be used to link off site.
    Bookmark lists.
    Sounds like a recipe for getting yourself banned to me.[/b][/quote]
    i can post a note on an event page saying theres a great pub near the event
    or the entire page is a hyperlink to a forum thread
    The cache page could be (follow link) the title could be (follow link) im not even trying hard yet.

    People are creative
    images on cache pages,
    background images,
    the guidelines do not apply to the logs on a cache page as those are the responsibility of the cache owner to police.
    Travel bugs can be named and renamed
    the listing can say follow the travel bug for more details.
    bookmark list descriptions
    pictures of the location for the event ie the pub car park uploaded to the cache page.
    suggestions for food you will bring with you on the day like scampi and chips, steak and chips let me know what you want me to bring along on the day.


    Lots of ways :cheers:

    but really speaking i should not have to do this
    "If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning."

  42. #42
    ghost cat Guest

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    Before starting a new site it is necessary not only to establish exactly what your are going to do but more importantly WHY you are doing it. Currently I see two possibilities:

    1) A full replacement for geocaching.com in the UK.

    The only reason to do this is to kick Groundspeak were it hurts. Which although satisfying is self defeating. Also as other people have already mentioned, this is a major undertaking, which I believe would fail.

    2) An auxiliary site for listing caches or adding details that Groundspeak won&#39;t allow.

    This will allow the UK some autonomy in cache placement[1] and listing content; without throwing the baby away with the bath water. This is probably achievable as the new site will only need to handle a relatively small number of caches.

    [1] I strongly suggest that catch placements adhere to the guildlines that the UK mods have been using up to now.

  43. #43
    molfrew-mosstoad Guest

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    For what its worth I think a Uk listing site would take quite a bit to get up and running, especially as the groundspeak database does a good job.

    However if many of the forum users could be persuaded to post and promote on this website (if GAGB are happy with that) instead of the main GC one we could strike a happy medium. Maybe with things being a little more relaxed here it would work well.

  44. #44

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    Originally posted by pray4mojo@Apr 25 2008, 02:03 PM

    The new forum could be here or as some people don&#39;t agree with the GAGB idea and I&#39;m not sure if the people that run this site would want it to be used like that or not(do you??) it could be elsewhere.

    GAGB is happy to host these discussions and UK forums in the future. Whilst the usual rules of mutual respect apply, we are happy to see promotion of Charitable activities and events in pubs :cheers:

  45. #45

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    Rather than attempt to set up a new site, would it not be possible for GAGB (and maybe Geocaching UK) to discuss a deal with GS where:

    i. The official UK forum becomes this one.
    ii. All caches are still stored in the GS database as now, but the UK becomes self governing and all rules in the UK become the responsibility of GAGB (a committee voted for by forum members). GS would then be little more than a hosting site for UK cache database and would not be held legally responsible for any of the contents.
    iii. The UK could include England, N. Ireland, Scotland & Wales, with the option being given to the Isle of Man to decide whom they wish to be governed by.

    We would then keep the well maintained GS database but not be answerable to the USA for caching rules. We may even be able to talk our great moderators Lacto & Ekki to return to doing what they&#39;ve done brilliantly for years.

  46. #46
    nobbynobbs Guest

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    To have a UK listing site is an idea that should be considered but only as a last resort. Anyone who has the experience, time and wherewithall to accomplish it feel free to think about how we could proceed but in the first instance it would be better if we could get the groundspeak people to see our point of view and allow a level of self control for the UK.

  47. #47
    Birdman-of-liskatraz Guest

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    I know it&#39;s been mentioned before but it&#39;s really worth reading the Australian forums at: Australian forums

    and see the discussions that theyv&#39;e been having..

  48. #48
    [MF]taz Guest

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    Just had thought (don&#39;t worry it didnt hurt)

    What are the possibility of having an forum with an external discussion thread for every (required) cache/event listing that the owner can link to or can be found by using the GCXXX (or TCXXX) number??

    What I was thinking that the extrernal site has a page that will either go to the topic or state that a topic does not exist would you like to create page.

    www.cachechat.com/viewtopic=GCXXXXX

    (looked at cachechat.com and its a redirect to a search page so someone already owns just used that as an idea)

    giving the owner and other cachers the chance to discuss that specific cache outside of the use of normal logs, and have somewhere fixed they can add extra detail.

    This could be put up for UK users but it could be worldwide.

    I know this brings up other questions such as hosting and who would moderate and to what guidlines etc... but I still, it may be something someone else may be able to run with.

    Lee

  49. #49
    fraggle69 Guest

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    ahh, so this is where the revolution is at&#33;

  50. #50
    Teasel Guest

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    With a bit of forethought, the basic CRUD functionality for caches, logs, photos etc should be relatively easy to put in place. I don&#39;t think that previous efforts fizzled due to the magnitude of the coding work involved. With a decent graphic designer on board, something 10x better than Navicache.com, and 100x more scalable than G:UK should be easily achievable on a single multi-core server.

    As I see it, the three problems are going to be funding, momentum and politics. A stable server for enough traffic to achieve critical mass will probably cost in the region of 2000 per year. That money, or donated server space, is going to have to come from somewhere.

    From my experience with G:UK I know that, while it&#39;s easy to motivate yourself to code up a new site, maintaining the code when things go wrong is less rewarding. The guys at Groundspeak have the advantage that they&#39;re primarily motivated by &#036;&#036;&#036; and the determination that, this time next year, they&#39;ll be miwwionaires (if they&#39;re not already). A non-profit site may have greater staff retention problems.

    The political problems may be minimised by a local, friendlier administration, but they won&#39;t go away. I doubt there&#39;s an Englishman alive who&#39;d consider pub names in cache descriptions to be unacceptably commercial, but what if the cache were owned by the landlord? As the rules change, do we grandfather, or remove? I doubt we&#39;d have any complaints about a Children in Need event, but what about a LIFE anti-abortion event? Should we allow caches in caves? What about dry stone walls? Inside Alton Towers? Bletchley Park? McDonalds? Stonehenge? A cacher&#39;s front garden in Avebury? Scout groups? Church groups? Scientologists? Aaaargh&#33;&#33;&#33; At least with the semi-benevolent dictatorship which is Groundspeak, there&#39;s a nice brick wall you can bang your head against, and a black hole to fire emails into, never to be seen again; until you get bored and find something more productive to do. With a friendlier approach to geocaching, we&#39;d need to find a way of resolving disputes, or we&#39;ll end up putting the moderators under even more pressure than they are now, which would be somewhat ironic&#33;

    I heard somewhere that in genetics, any mutation which infiltrates less than 10% of the population is doomed to die out. So, if 10% of the UK cachers would switch to the new listings site, then I&#39;d say let&#39;s go for it&#33; Otherwise, we&#39;re doomed before we start.

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