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Thread: Caches in Graveyards [Church or Standalone] a change in Reviewing Policy in the UK

  1. #1

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    Exclamation Caches in Graveyards [Church or Standalone] a change in Reviewing Policy in the UK

    As I've recently had to Archive a couple of caches in Graveyards, after Groundspeak received a official complaint about them being located without permission.

    From the email received

    My anxiety about this is that, in looking for them, people will necessarily be rummaging around, even walking over graves. This is obviously a bit insensitive for those who have loved ones buried in the churchyard
    as these have not been the first ones in such locations which have been archived after a complaint was received.

    I have after careful consideration after dealing with the current caches have decided to treat caches submitted for Review in Graveyards, in a similar way to caches in Nature Reserves or on National Trust/Forestry Commission land where no Blanket Permission Agreement is in place.

    Any cache submitted which which has a Physical component within a Graveyard The owner will be required to submit proof of permission to place the cache, before the cache will be Published.

    Any cache already published with a physical component within a Graveyard is of course Grandfathered in.But my advice if permission has not been obtained would be to obtain Permission to avoid the risk of the cache being archived, due to a landowner complaint to Groundspeak.

    Once again to make it clear. I'm not refusing to publish caches in Graveyards, just requiring proof of permission before publication.

    Deceangi Volunteer UK Reviewer Geocaching.com
    My post is my personal opinion and as such you do not have my permission to quote me outside of these forums!

    Dave
    Brenin Tegeingl
    Formerly known as Mancunian Pyrocacher on GC

  2. #2

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    Thumbs up Gets my vote (if I had one LOL)

    A measured and well thought through course of action. I don't think anyone has any cause to complain about this one as it just re-inforces the permissions rules.:cheers:
    "I Cache, therefore I am"

  3. #3

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    I'm all for it too, I have always felt uncomfortable caching in graveyards, I don't mind gathering clues as me looking at the headstones is no different then someone researching thier history, but to find a cache when you can't be certain that permission has been granted especially if it's difficult to find isn't so nice. Any that are published now I'll be much happier to search for as I know the permissions have definitely been sought.

  4. #4
    molfrew-mosstoad Guest

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    Totally agree, Im not a fan of church caches, partly for that reason.

  5. #5

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    I actually enjoy doing caches in churchyards, though I have sometimes felt uncomfortable when the cache has been amongst the graves and I've not known whether it's got permission. So that new approach sounds great to me, Dave!
    ​​Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light. (Dylan Thomas)​


  6. #6

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    I agree with the decision - like others I have never been overly comfortable caching in graveyards. Don't mind getting a clue for a multi etc as long as it does not involve leaving a path.
    Once again its common sense and a sense of reverence. You shouldn't go round like a bull in a china shop.
    Happy Caching

    Gazooks

    - Setting a good example for children takes all the fun out of middle age.

  7. #7

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    As I said "elsewhere", I wholeheartedly support Dave's take on this and he should be congratulated for his measured response to what could be a tricky issue.

  8. #8

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    I have been in discussion with the church council re placing a cache in a churchyard and the vicar is for it, we have only the finer details to sort and once the "reviewer" situation has eased we shall put it up for review, until then we have allowed this cache to "rest in peace".
    Who's had the accident!!
    Who called the doctor?

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by DR. Ape View Post
    I have been in discussion with the church council re placing a cache in a churchyard and the vicar is for it, we have only the finer details to sort and once the "reviewer" situation has eased we shall put it up for review, until then we have allowed this cache to "rest in peace".
    Just post a reviewer note stating permission has been obtained off the Reverend and church council and submit it . Thats one ess issue for me to have to pull you about

    Deci
    My post is my personal opinion and as such you do not have my permission to quote me outside of these forums!

    Dave
    Brenin Tegeingl
    Formerly known as Mancunian Pyrocacher on GC

  10. #10

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    Gentle bump due to another thread.
    "If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning."

  11. #11

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    Sorry to appear to be the doubter yet again.

    But how will getting permission prevent the rummaging and insensitive trampling? Is such behaviour OK as long as the vicar knows about it? Or is it merely to protect Groundspeak and not about sensitivity at all?

    I would have thought that a better course of action is to refuse to list churchyard caches unless there are clear and detailed directions as to the position of the cache, appropriate warnings about not straying from the path, and reminders about behaviour in the presence of mourners. Much though I like the churchyard cache, I agree that it's not the place to rummage around so GPS coordinates are not enough for this type of hide.

    If the description passes that test, THEN it might be worth reminding the submitter that specific permission should be sought; if only to protect cache seekers from embarrassment should they come to the notice of church officials (when that has happened to me, I confidently declared that "I'm looking for the geocache" - it's not my problem if the official hasn't a clue what I'm talking about!).

    There are big weakness in the "permission solution". One is that the vicar may indeed grant it at the time, but two years down the line the new vicar may have no idea about the cache. Or, the complainant may not be the vicar but some other official who knows nothing about the cache or permission. Or, permission might be in place but no-one has any documentary proof. Or, as the vicar is unlikely to be the landowner, does he/she actually have authority to give permission? And what is permission for anyway; as far as I know these places have full public access granted and there's nothing to stop people trampling about.

    And, as I said at the start, it doesn't stop the trampling and rummaging (which is all the complaint was about, after all!). But having a better cache description might just help some people keep their behaviour at the appropriate level.

  12. #12

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    Just to throw another boulder into the pond, here is a quote from a recent BBC news item
    The 1977 Local Authority Cemeteries' Order, which applies to England, Scotland and Wales, sets down some basic laws of conduct. Creating a disturbance in a churchyard, committing a nuisance, wilfully interfering with burials or graves, or playing games or sports, are all finable offences.

    (The bold is mine)
    So we come back to the old question of "Is it a game, a sport or an addiction etc."

    The full news article can be found here

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Roger View Post
    So we come back to the old question of "Is it a game, a sport or an addiction etc."
    That is answered by groundspeak and their catchphrase.

    " The sport where you are the search engine "

  14. #14

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    It's all about stopping the Priest/Vicar/Reverend contacting Groundspeak and requesting that the container is removed, as the owner of it had not obtained his/her permission. I personally and not Groundspeak, brought in the Proof of Permission Requirement [at that time I was the sole UK Based Reviewer]. After having to deal with a No of such requests, 2 caches at separate locations coming under the management of one person. Who stated as I originally quoted

    My anxiety about this is that, in looking for them, people will necessarily be rummaging around, even walking over graves. This is obviously a bit insensitive for those who have loved ones buried in the churchyard
    Since the restriction has been brought in, I and my colleagues have happily published a No of caches where permission has been given.

    Once again to make it very clear, this is a restriction imposed by the UK Reviewers, with the support of Groundspeak. And not one imposed by Groundspeak. It is a local one by the people who in the end have to action complaints about such locations.

    In several states in the US, all forms of Sports/Games/RASH [Recreational Activity Sporting Hobby] is banned in cemeteries, whilst in others people regularly hold picnics. It's all about what is best suitable for the local community.

    Deceangi Volunteer UK Reviewer Geocaching.com
    My post is my personal opinion and as such you do not have my permission to quote me outside of these forums!

    Dave
    Brenin Tegeingl
    Formerly known as Mancunian Pyrocacher on GC

  15. #15

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    Article 18 - Offences in Cemeteries

    (1) No person shall-

    (a) wilfully create any disturbance in a Cemetery;
    (b) commit any nuisance in a Cemetery;
    (c) wilfully interfere with any burial taking place in a Cemetery;
    (d) wilfully interfere with any grave or vault, any tombstone or other memorial, or any flowers or plants on any such matter; or
    (e) play at any game or sport in a Cemetery.

    Article 19 - Penalties
    Every person who contravenes -
    (a) any prohibition under article 5(6);
    (b) article 10(6);
    (c) article 18;
    (d) Part 1 of Schedule 2 shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding Level 3 on the standard scale (currently 1,000) and in the case of a continuing offence to a fine not exceeding 10 for each day during which the offence continues after conviction therefor

    Whether permission is granted or not, under the 1977 Local Cemeteries Order that permission isnt valid. I am sure that even if the Priest / Vicar / Reverend gives permission, he is not the Burial Authority for the area, and cannot legally give that permission.

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