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Thread: Monkeying Around in Wendover Woods (Bucks), Another Go Ape (if you want to) event

  1. #1
    Simply Paul Guest

    Thumbs up Monkeying Around in Wendover Woods (Bucks), Another Go Ape (if you want to) event

    When it's been approved (as there's no requirement to take part in the Go Ape activities I think it's when, not if!) I'll post a link to GC1EE9V, but in the meantime, from the event page:

    Monkeying Around in Wendover Woods (Bucks)
    Sunday September 14th, from 12pm at Wendover Woods, near Aylesbury, Bucks.


    Parking at the main car park (follow Wendover Woods signs, the entrance is opposite the golf course) is 3 all day, but if you continue along the road (or stop early if coming from the south of the woods) to N51 45.930 W000 41.874 you'll find other, free parking with access close by. A little 0.8mile walk to the event site from there though - Bring a bike?

    There is no requirement to take part in the Go Ape activities to attend this event! But if you'd like to, prebooking is vital. At the moment there are 56 spaces available between 12pm-2pm on that Sunday. You can book via this link (amend the form details with the number in your group) or by calling 0870 444 5562 but please wait until the event has been approved if you're keen to get your smiley! If you're not taking part, there's under-cover seating, a cafe in the woods close by, BBQ areas, ample parking, loos etc.

    Important!:
    Go Ape's rules are you have to be 10 or over, and up to 17 years old you have to be accompanied by an 18+ adult. Minimum height is 140cm (4ft 7") and maximum weight is 130Kg (20.5 Stone). You need to wear suitable closed-toe shoes/boots, be physically fit and able to handle heights! If you chicken out before going too far you can get a refund. Non participants are free to watch 'Apes' (18+ 25 for around 2-3hours) and 'Baboons' (10-17years 20 for the same course) from below, take photos, throw bananas, etc.

    Additional Hints ( Decrypt )
    [Bring your own ape suit]

    More information here as and when I have it, or feel free to ask questions

  2. #2

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    Awww that's a pity - me and mine will be up at the Rivington camping event. Hope you have fun

  3. #3

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    Ah: that's what it's all about! I couldn't make head or tail of it on the Groundspeak forum: seems to be written in some sort of gibbonish...

    And then the thread was closed so you couldn't even ask what was going on! Perhaps the way to proceed is to make the cache description a puzzle which leads to this rather more informative thread.

    I'm afraid that I'll be in Andalucia. Pity (quite).

  4. #4
    Simply Paul Guest

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    Even though it's clear in the description that the Go Ape activities were optional the event has been archived before it could be edited to match (new? new interpretation of?) GS rules. I've requested that it's unarchived so I can amend the listing to pass 'the test of cachingness'. Stay tuned.

    Oh, and I was told I could appeal via appeals@geocaching.com if I wanted to. I laughed on the inside
    Last edited by Simply Paul; 28th August 2008 at 10:52 PM.

  5. #5

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    Surely you might as well submit a new event based on the old description (with revisions), which would save the un-archiving malarkey?

    The best way to get a full and detailed description of the Go Ape course in the event description is to first submit a waymark in the Fitness Trails category (http://www.waymarking.com/cat/detail...5-aaf66b8e4fdc). My experience is that waymarks get approved within a few hours, although a reminder might be necessary occasionally, but this category is new so they'll be welcoming new entries.

    Then all you do is link to this waymark in the Event description. GS can hardly object to a link which leads to their own website, and there's no restriction on submitting commercial fitness trails to Waymarking.

  6. #6

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    Please contact Groundspeak directly as requested to do so concerning the event, as they have decided that it is a commercial enterprise, the listing of a event there will have to have their approval. As this is beyond the remit of Volunteer Reviewers. The event submission was Archived on their instructions.

    Deci
    My post is my personal opinion and as such you do not have my permission to quote me outside of these forums!

    Dave
    Brenin Tegeingl
    Formerly known as Mancunian Pyrocacher on GC

  7. #7
    Simply Paul Guest

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    I'm delighted no obstacles are being put in my way on this one. It wasn't a commercial enterprise, the page made it clear any other activities available in the woods were wholly optional... I've not been requested to do anything; I was told no, and I could appeal if I wanted to. Happy Humphrey, it doesn't look like making a fresh, amended listing (my plan B) is going to make much difference. But I won't let that stop me trying

  8. #8
    nobbynobbs Guest

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    Call it : definitely NOT going ape

    then describe all the other things you will be doing and suggest people check out the woods via google etc..... leave it open to them to put 2+2=?

    Surely the powers that be can't complain that people going there might end up doing something off their own backs?

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simply Paul View Post
    I'm delighted no obstacles are being put in my way on this one. It wasn't a commercial enterprise, the page made it clear any other activities available in the woods were wholly optional... I've not been requested to do anything; I was told no, and I could appeal if I wanted to. Happy Humphrey, it doesn't look like making a fresh, amended listing (my plan B) is going to make much difference. But I won't let that stop me trying
    Being told "no" is a fair-sized obstacle isn't it? The "appeal" sounds like another opportunity for the same people to say "no" again if nothing has changed...

  10. #10
    Simply Paul Guest

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    That's about the only option left to me nobby. I'm working on an amended cache page now. It's been suggested to me that I hold the event in a local pub... because that wouldn't be a commercial location, would it? Swap a family-friendly location with no requirement to spend anything (I even give co-ords for free parking) for a less family-friendly location where you'd reasonably expected to buy a drink or two, as a minimum. Anyway, there's no pub for miles.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mancunian View Post
    Please contact Groundspeak directly as requested to do so concerning the event, as they have decided that it is a commercial enterprise, the listing of a event there will have to have their approval. As this is beyond the remit of Volunteer Reviewers. The event submission was Archived on their instructions.

    Deci

    Is this another of those guideline "changes" that no-one is told of, or is it somewhat deeper.

    I seem to remember that in the distant past - well before last April anyway - we were happy to post events that had an OPTIONAL extra activity that could have attracted an entry fee; Anderton Boat Lift adventure, Froncysyllte Aquaduct adventure being 2 that spring to mind..........and no-one from GSP objected - indeed were we not once told by a senior lackey that, as long as the extra activity was clearly optional it was fine.

  12. #12

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    Happy Humphrey wrote:
    Then all you do is link to this waymark in the Event description. GS can hardly object to a link which leads to their own website, and there's no restriction on submitting commercial fitness trails to Waymarking.
    Why does Kafka come to mind...? h34r:
    ​​Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light. (Dylan Thomas)​


  13. #13

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    Dunno: do you detect a mounting sense of powerlessness and anxiety in the face of a menacing and omniscient bureaucracy,perhaps?

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Humphrey View Post
    Dunno: do you detect a mounting sense of powerlessness and anxiety in the face of a menacing and omniscient bureaucracy,perhaps?
    ​​Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light. (Dylan Thomas)​


  15. #15
    Simply Paul Guest

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    Thanks guys, that's all given me a much-needed chuckle. Here's the amended page. Lets see if TPTB jump on it again. Just for reference, here's what was ok in 2005: Go Ape in Grizedale Forest

    My totally new event proposal. If this doesn't pass you'll all be able to see where the line is drawn...:

    Return to Wendover Woods (Bucks)

    Sunday September 14th, from 12pm at Wendover Woods, near Aylesbury, Bucks


    Cache event returns to Wendover Woods! Having enjoyed the Burgers, Buns & Chums!! event here in 2005, I thought it was time to come back to this great, family-friendly location. Who needs a stuffy pub when there's the great outdoors to have a geocache event in?!

    Parking: Can be found in the ample main car park (follow Wendover Woods signs and/or head for the entrance opposite the golf club at N47.199 W000 42.939) and is £3 all day. But! if you continue along the road (or stop early if coming from the south of the woods) to N51 45.930 W000 41.874 you'll find other, free parking with road access close by. A little 0.8mile walk to the event site from there though - Bring a bike?

    The Event: Rather than a BBQ I suggest people bring their own packed lunch, although if someone wants to bring BBQ equipment (I'm no cook!) it may be possible to have one of those too. There's undercover seating at the given location and picnic tables close by. There's also a pleasant cafe and toilets, including a disabled one, within a minute's walk.

    The Woods: Wendover Woods are a 325 hectare mixed coniferous and broadleaved woodland managed by the Forestry Commission. Situated on the northern edge of the Chiltern Hills escarpment it affords spectacular views across the Vale of Aylesbury, and contains Buckinghamshire's highest point, marked with a cairn. There are several forest trails through the woods, including The Firecrest Trail (2.8miles, 2hours) named after Europe's smallest bird, which nests in the area April to September. There's also A Forest Fitness Trail (0.9m/1h), All Ability Hilltop Trail suitable for wheelchair users (0.6m/30min) and a Family Cycle Trail of 6 miles (2 hours). There's also a network of horse-riding trails, a mountain bike course at nearby Aston Hill, children's play equipment and an aerial adventure course for ages 10+ (charged for). There are even some caches in and close to the wood!

    Please note: There is no requirement to take part in any other activities to attend this strictly non-commercial event! Any links are included only for your information and should not be taken as a recommendation or suggestion of further activities. This Geocaching Event is free to attend, open to all cachers and will feature classic caching chit-chat and coin and TB swapping.

  16. #16

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    Looks great! Perhaps overemphasising the non-commercial nature of it (but that is probably necessary).

    If it was me I'd still use waymarking.com links to the mountain bike trail and Go Ape course to be completely on the safe side: the links to external sites are the weak point in your defence when the appeal goes to the High Court. :wacko: But I'll understand if you can't be bothered.

  17. #17

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    What an utter shambles Paul As Dodgy D has suggested, we would have had no objection to your original listing as you make it clear that the "commercial" activity in the vicinity is entirely optional and doesn't actually form any part of the event.

    What I find particularly worrying is Deci's statement that the local review team have been instructed by TMATO to disallow it. No local knowledge, no leeway, no independence, just "Computer says No!" It is that sort of edict that contributed to me leaving reviewing. Makes you wonder why they bothered putting a new, independent, local review team in place.

    As for the suggestion of going to "appeals@", they're surely having a laugh. We both know how well that so called system works.

    Anyway, good luck with the event - if it gets published.

  18. #18

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    I can tell you immediately that you may not directly link to a commercial website which is clearly stated in the guidelines

    Additionally, links to businesses, commercial advertisers, charities, political or social agendas, or the inclusion of their associated logos are not permitted on cache descriptions without prior permission from Groundspeak.
    both the FC BBQ rental and Aerial Adventure course links are commercial and have to go. You have already been advised Go Ape which is a commercial company is not acceptable to Groundspeak

    You are also aware that a tightening up of the guidelines was one of the reasons why 2 reviewers resigned, and that

    First and foremost please be advised there is no precedent for placing caches. This means that the past listing of a similar cache in and of itself is not a valid justification for the listing of a new cache.
    so please don't try to confuse the issue over your event by referring back to what was published under a much more relaxed reviewing of events.

    And whilst Waymarking allows commercial posts, Geocaching.com doesn't, trying to get around something Groundspeak have already stated is not acceptable is walking in to more issues. Geocaching.com is their site and they have the final say over what is listed.

    And I'm sorry Peter but the event owner by posting a copy and paste of a unreviewed event to the forums, before a local reviewer could work with the owner to get it publishable. Was asking for trouble, as we had no chance to use our local knowledge, in fact Groundspeak saw the event before either of the 2 UK Reviewers did possibly due to it being posted in its entirety in the forums. Being the owner of a Commercial Event, your also fully aware that if you work with Groundspeak before submitting such a event. And also having taken commercial events for others to Groundspeak on their behalf, many things are possible.

    Deci
    My post is my personal opinion and as such you do not have my permission to quote me outside of these forums!

    Dave
    Brenin Tegeingl
    Formerly known as Mancunian Pyrocacher on GC

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Hornet View Post

    What I find particularly worrying is Deci's statement that the local review team have been instructed by TMATO to disallow it. No local knowledge, no leeway, no independence, just "Computer says No!" It is that sort of edict that contributed to me leaving reviewing. Makes you wonder why they bothered putting a new, independent, local review team in place.

    So, it would appear that the UK reviewing team now has to put the interests of GSP above the interests of UK cachers.

    This would also seem to be borne out by Deceangi's recent post in this thread.

    Between July 2003 and April 2008 the reviewing team tried very hard to operate with the interests of UK cachers as a priority, not always to the approval of all admittedly (as the recent debate, in another thread, about temporary cache disablement shows).

    It is a shame that the seemingly fundamentalist attitude of the triumvirate of so called super/global moderators/reviewers has been accepted by the current UK reviewers.

    However, I have no doubt they felt thay had no choice, and I have no doubt that we will all carry on caching...............

  20. #20

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    Deci,
    I know you're in a difficult position with this, so don't take it personally...
    Quote Originally Posted by Mancunian View Post
    And whilst Waymarking allows commercial posts, Geocaching.com doesn't, trying to get around something Groundspeak have already stated is not acceptable is walking in to more issues. Geocaching.com is their site and they have the final say over what is listed.
    Indeed, but in fact all cache pages have a hyperlink (nearest waymarks) which directly links to a list of carefully-chosen nearby locations held on the groundspeak database: often including commercial establishments. So if the Event description merely duplicates this process, I can hardly see any justification in Groundspeak complaining.

    But really, you can see that the event is not essentially a commercial enterprise. It may have the side effect of creating income for a non-geocaching enterprise but that applies to virtually all events. What changes would cause it to be a truly commercial event? I don't know, but I'd know it if I saw it. And this isn't one.

    HH

  21. #21
    nobbynobbs Guest

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    OK I'm going with the idea of a completely new type of event!!!

    THE MYSTERY EVENT.

    post the parking co=ords and the date and tell them that they have to try and figure it out themselves. :wacko:

  22. #22

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    Just a point of clarification, I am NOT criticising the local review team. They are in an invidious position and to remain as reviewers have to do as they are instructed. They have my sympathy in this instance, as does Simply Paul.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mancunian View Post
    I can tell you immediately that you may not directly link to a commercial website which is clearly stated in the guidelines....<snip>....
    You are also aware that a tightening up of the guidelines was one of the reasons why 2 reviewers resigned,
    Very, very true. I published dozens & dozens of caches with the odd "commercial" link during my time and as far as I can recall the whole Geocaching edifice didn't come tumbling down. There you go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mancunian View Post
    And I'm sorry Peter....<snip>..... Being the owner of a Commercial Event, your also fully aware that if you work with Groundspeak before submitting such a event. And also having taken commercial events for others to Groundspeak on their behalf, many things are possible.

    Deci
    Some things are certainly possible, but do not compare the Let's go Geocaching which was entirely commercial, by a commercial company, which you had to pay to attend, with Paul's. Maybe Paul did make a mistake by copying the proposed details to a forum but it's interesting the attention our little backwater is getting by the Fundamentalistas from afar.

  24. #24
    Simply Paul Guest

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    Cachers on the piste - Far be it for me to suggest there appears to be some inconsistency... But there appears to be some inconsistency.

    To remind everyone; I'm a humble geocacher trying to set up an event for the benefit of other cachers. Something in a family friendly location (i.e. not a pub) with the option of doing some family friendly activities (i.e. not drinking in a pub), some of which there may be a charge for, if they want to do them. I don't want to go to war with Dave, Groundspeak or anyone over this. As Happy Humphrey says, it isn't worth my effort.

  25. #25
    Simply Paul Guest

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    It's all gone quiet... No news on my revised event proposal either. I don't want to be chasing anyone up on this, but I only have until Sunday evening to get it approved as this will be 14 days before the event and that's 'minimum safe distance' for an event listing... I'll give it a bit longer then contact reviewers directly I think (although if any are reading this some feedback would be appreciated).

  26. #26
    Simply Paul Guest

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    Working on the principle that there's no such thing as bad publicity, Monkeying Around in Wendover Woods (Bucks) should be very well attended! My thanks go to Graculus for his patience and help in navigating the event-listing Ok/Not Ok minefield with the exchange of several emails and for flexibility as far as Groundspeak would allow. I think the published version is as 'close to the limit' as I could expect to get- Frankly I thought I was pushing my luck with that title! Feel free to take a look for your own reference. You'll note it IS ok to say Go Ape, but it ISN'T ok to link to it.

    With this in mind, I've been barking up the wrong tree, to mix my animal/forestry metaphors. Regardless of what may or may not make up a commercial locations (pubs aren't, and camping even when there's a fee to camp isn't, and I'm glad of this) as Deci pointed out above, it does say in the guidelines: 'Additionally, links to businesses, commercial advertisers, charities, political or social agendas, or the inclusion of their associated logos are not permitted on cache descriptions without prior permission from Groundspeak.' This hasn't been applied overly vigorously in the past (see the link above to an event passed just a month ago for example) and hopefully won't be in the future; I was just very unlucky with my timing, and that my original proposal came to the attention of Groundspeak 'directly' rather than just the UK reviewers. Now I'm more up-to-date on what GS take to be commercial (just saying 'you don't have to take part' isn't enough) and that there really are rules about not linking to certain things (Pub menus? Camping sites?) I won't make the same mistake again.

    Now, that does say 'cache descriptions'. What about logs?

  27. #27
    Simply Paul Guest

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    This was my log:

    For anyone interested in the totally optional Go Ape activities, I've a couple of discount codes which will give you 10&#37; off booking. Just to reiterate, the geocaching event is free and open to all to attend. I'm aware some people may wish to do other activities in the woods and I'm only trying to help them enjoy their day out.
    SP

    (Also, another coin drop)


    And this is what happened:

    This is an automated message from Geocaching

    Your log entry for the listing Monkeying Around in Wendover Woods (Bucks) (Event Cache) was deleted by Michael at 9/2/2008 2:31:57 PM

    Visit this listing at the below address:
    http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.a...1-ed292d35b03a

    Michael profile:
    http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?g...3-2f797cee4ab9


    That's that question answered then. There was no link in my note, just the offer of discount codes for 'an optional activity in the wood' and a reiteration that the event was free and open to all. No explanation of the reason for the deletion from Michael either but, even though the rules on what makes a commercial cache don't mention logs, and I didn't link to anything (I'd been warned not to), I'm prepared to have a guess as to what the problem was. Now, have a look at this, far more recent than the 2005 event which inspired me, Go Ape cachebash: Aventura, t&#243;mbola i TB's - 30th Agust 2008 I'd link to this on the Groundspeak forum, but I suspect I'd get in trouble if I did. Someone else would get away with asking the question though...

    Edit: Sod it, I've gone for it. MissJenn was just on the forum but the thread's not been locked or deleted just yet (11.14pm)... Keep your fingers crossed for me! Oh, and Graculus later emailed to me with some words of warning and something close to a threat; I'd broken an unwritten rule. Then Michael IMd me through the forum to say I'd been told what the problem was by the UK reviewer and he didn't need to tell me what I'd done wrong. Which I agree with 100%.
    Last edited by Simply Paul; 3rd September 2008 at 01:36 AM.

  28. #28
    Simply Paul Guest

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    After all the fun and games, this event should be blessed with good weather and is on tomorrow, from 12pm til about 4pm. It'd be apeleasure to see you there

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