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Thread: The other listing sites

  1. #1

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    Default The other listing sites

    There is more than one listing site

    Terracaching
    Opencaching
    Navicache
    Geocaching

    others ?

    there are some others and private lists out there (honest) who has contact and is a regular looker/ user on these and how do we go about getting them to recognise the GAGB.

    Ill partially answer for terracaching, we could edit their wiki ? ensure as many UK cachers are sponsored by gagb members as possible to ensure a more robust review process that an USA based reviewer
    "If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning."

  2. #2
    Icenians Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by markandlynn View Post
    There is more than one listing site
    Ill partially answer for terracaching, we could edit their wiki ? ensure as many UK cachers are sponsored by gagb members as possible to ensure a more robust review process that an USA based reviewer
    I guess that now is a good time to get GAGB members to sponsor UK cachers, although the choice comes down to the cacher in the end, given that there are so few of us at the moment.

    It would seem to be the best approach with a site of the structure TC uses.

    From a navicache point of view, there is centralised cache review so it should be possible to make them aware of the landowner agreements, although they may have trouble figuring out which one's apply depending on the mapping they use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Icenians View Post
    I guess that now is a good time to get GAGB members to sponsor UK cachers, although the choice comes down to the cacher in the end, given that there are so few of us at the moment.

    It would seem to be the best approach with a site of the structure TC uses.

    From a navicache point of view, there is centralised cache review so it should be possible to make them aware of the landowner agreements, although they may have trouble figuring out which one's apply depending on the mapping they use.
    Actually, I would look at it the other way round. The cache placer should have done all the due dilligence so that the review process is merely a formality. GAGB can take the lead in this by actively promoting the guidelines as best practice and publicising related resources (like maps of SSSIs that need two levels of permission). It could also encourage a structured approach to review, so cachers also review their own caches before they submit them.

    This could provide a country-specific approach for TC and make the peer review process directly relevant (even international sponsors could follow GAGB practice on TCs in UK), it could help mitigate any perceived or actual weaknesses in the review processes on NC and OC and with input from the GSP-appointed reviewers could help de-mystify the review process for those who persistently place a greater burden on the GSP reviewers! (I know I've not always been a model pupil for starters :lol

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandvika View Post
    Actually, I would look at it the other way round. The cache placer should have done all the due dilligence so that the review process is merely a formality. GAGB can take the lead in this by actively promoting the guidelines as best practice and publicising related resources (like maps of SSSIs that need two levels of permission). It could also encourage a structured approach to review, so cachers also review their own caches before they submit them.

    This could provide a country-specific approach for TC and make the peer review process directly relevant (even international sponsors could follow GAGB practice on TCs in UK), it could help mitigate any perceived or actual weaknesses in the review processes on NC and OC and with input from the GSP-appointed reviewers could help de-mystify the review process for those who persistently place a greater burden on the GSP reviewers! (I know I've not always been a model pupil for starters :lol
    Not sure I understand what you're getting at here. :

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    Quote Originally Posted by Icenians View Post
    Not sure I understand what you're getting at here. :
    Well, take it from the perspective of a naive new cacher who does not consider the ramifications of placing a cache at location X. Deceangi has made it clear that as a GSP reviewer he's having to deal with people who have not even read the GSP guidelines so it's reasonable to deduce that they don't have any awareness of GAGB.

    For example, my first cache placement was over-enthusiastic, placed in a spot where the imact of caching would have been highly detrimental to the habitat, although it passed review. It lasted less than a week before someone pointed out what was happening and I archived it hurriedly with remorse.

    If my introduction to caching had lead me directly to GAGB because it's the de-facto first port of call for caching in UK then I could have got engaged faster, more effectively and avoided the blunder. I acted swiftly to rectify my mistake however not everyone can or does. I still made poor cache placement choices 9 months subsequently and the risk of doing so again has not gone completely, however, climbing the learning curve has been largely my own effort.

    So, if GAGB were at the forefront of caching in the UK, collectively we could ensure that our knowledge is shared effectively, that caches placed are sympathetic and appropriate to the environment as well as the local circumstances pertinent to UK. Essentially, GAGB would provide the community and the information to help get new cachers to mastery of the craft in the shortest possible time. Mastery imples that they could review their own and other people's caches effectively.

    I don't think the GSP reviewers would complain if the proportion of caches that come across their desks and are ready for publication first time round improves I suspect their workload is a classic application of the 80-20 rule, that 20% of cache placements require 80% of the effort, so pushing that in the direction of 90-10 and ultimately 100-0 can only be a good thing. However, the benefit of achieving this through the GAGB is that it would apply across all the listing sites.

  6. #6
    Icenians Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by sandvika View Post
    Well, take it from the perspective of a naive new cacher who does not consider the ramifications of placing a cache at location X. Deceangi has made it clear that as a GSP reviewer he's having to deal with people who have not even read the GSP guidelines so it's reasonable to deduce that they don't have any awareness of GAGB.

    For example, my first cache placement was over-enthusiastic, placed in a spot where the imact of caching would have been highly detrimental to the habitat, although it passed review. It lasted less than a week before someone pointed out what was happening and I archived it hurriedly with remorse.

    If my introduction to caching had lead me directly to GAGB because it's the de-facto first port of call for caching in UK then I could have got engaged faster, more effectively and avoided the blunder. I acted swiftly to rectify my mistake however not everyone can or does. I still made poor cache placement choices 9 months subsequently and the risk of doing so again has not gone completely, however, climbing the learning curve has been largely my own effort.

    So, if GAGB were at the forefront of caching in the UK, collectively we could ensure that our knowledge is shared effectively, that caches placed are sympathetic and appropriate to the environment as well as the local circumstances pertinent to UK. Essentially, GAGB would provide the community and the information to help get new cachers to mastery of the craft in the shortest possible time. Mastery imples that they could review their own and other people's caches effectively.

    I don't think the GSP reviewers would complain if the proportion of caches that come across their desks and are ready for publication first time round improves I suspect their workload is a classic application of the 80-20 rule, that 20% of cache placements require 80% of the effort, so pushing that in the direction of 90-10 and ultimately 100-0 can only be a good thing. However, the benefit of achieving this through the GAGB is that it would apply across all the listing sites.
    Ah right. I see the aim. I'm just not sure what you meant re getting it across within TC. Do you mean by education and publicity within TC? or some other approach?

  7. #7
    Icenians Guest

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    We seemed to have strayed off topic a bit with this. It's more relevent in the other thread

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    Quote Originally Posted by Icenians View Post
    We seemed to have strayed off topic a bit with this. It's more relevent in the other thread
    I tried to create a new thread to split the conversations up a bit guess ive gone wrong


    oh well theres alawys caching to do
    "If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning."

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    Quote Originally Posted by markandlynn View Post
    I tried to create a new thread to split the conversations up a bit guess ive gone wrong


    oh well theres alawys caching to do
    Hmm yes! Sorry!

    Perhaps I should add that I'm not aware of any caches in UK other than those on GC, NC, OC and TC as you mentioned in the first place :cheers:

    That is of course except for Letterboxing and Urban Letterboxing which I suspect are out of scope because they are much older than us and don't involve GPSrs!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sandvika View Post
    Perhaps I should add that I'm not aware of any caches in UK other than those on GC, NC, OC and TC as you mentioned in the first place :cheers:
    OC?

    There's Lovelock and Jacobite too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Humphrey View Post
    OC?

    There's Lovelock and Jacobite too.
    OC is opencaching

    doesn't 'he who must not be named' cache on NC?

    Jacobite is fairly active on GC still. Would he / does he already follow the basic principles that GAGB are likely to use?

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    Oh yes: I forgot about OC. Lovelock does have caches on NC but mainly his own site. I think you can risk mentioning him on here, although Jeremy probably has now been informed about this thread by one of his minions...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Humphrey View Post
    Oh yes: I forgot about OC. Lovelock does have caches on NC but mainly his own site. I think you can risk mentioning him on here, although Jeremy probably has now been informed about this thread by one of his minions...
    There's no problem with mentioning Robin Lovelock on here. That doesn't imply approval or otherwise of his commercial caches, but you're welcome to discuss him and his caches here.
    ​​Do not go gentle into that good night.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill D (wwh) View Post
    There's no problem with mentioning Robin Lovelock on here. That doesn't imply approval or otherwise of his commercial caches, but you're welcome to discuss him and his caches here.
    Aye, I know - just be silly!

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Gerrie View Post
    OC is opencaching
    Yes, but where is it? Got a link?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan White View Post
    Yes, but where is it? Got a link?
    I imagine its this one. Sprechen Sie Deutsch?
    ​​Do not go gentle into that good night.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan White View Post
    Yes, but where is it? Got a link?
    I don't think its actually got active in the UK yet... mainly german and dutch I believe! Don;t know much about it, but I believe its very region-based (sounds ideal!) so a UK site would be opencaching.co.uk

    http://www.opencaching.de/

    its in german though!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill D (wwh) View Post
    There's no problem with mentioning Robin Lovelock on here. That doesn't imply approval or otherwise of his commercial caches, but you're welcome to discuss him and his caches here.
    For the record it is worth pointing out that Robin removed his CDs from his caches long ago (before he got banned on GSP if you look at some of the archived logs) and the other issue that seems completely ludicrous now was the cache density he created in the South of England....

    So getting back onto topic, in general terms, I can see that each listing site has its merits:

    GC: high function site with many great optional chargeable features like pocket queries
    NC: syndication (ie. listings and logs are in public domain)
    TC: clever scoring and rating, full spectrum of cache types
    OC: open software system and syndication(?)

    Each also has its deficiencies:

    GC: *cough* I'm not going to fuel that fire!
    NC: basic functions, virtually stagnant in UK
    TC: mid function, embryonic in UK (but like GC it's growing), sometimes slow
    OC: seemingly only available in German, Czech and Polish! Caches listed as in UK are mostly in Germany with incorrect longitude specified accidentally!

    What features are really important to you? I've finally started using GSAK to consolidate my activities across the sites (thanks Alan White for the heads up on this) and this has really raised the importance of good GPX quality at the expense of the individual features of the sites, however it's too early to say what features I will stop using.
    Last edited by sandvika; 25th November 2008 at 09:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Gerrie View Post
    OC is opencaching

    doesn't 'he who must not be named' cache on NC?

    Jacobite is fairly active on GC still. Would he / does he already follow the basic principles that GAGB are likely to use?
    He does, with one exception. I'll be placing a few caches in areas that require an entry fee in future (because I feel it benefits the finder). However, I'm opposed to placing caches that promote my own business (because I fail to see how this would benefit the finder, or caching in general).
    I'm just going outside, and may be some time!

    www.jacobitecaching.co.uk

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    This is a whole different can of worms, and may be better left for a different thread, and probably a different time.

    However...

    I would say that any agreed guidelines should be very basic, and not include 'personal preference'... I see no substantial issue with charging, or commercial caches, or even (dare I say it) a paid subscription to a listing site. These are all the choice of a listing site, and (IMHO) shouldn't be "regulated" by GAGB.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sandvika View Post
    ...
    I've finally started using GSAK to consolidate my activities across the sites (thanks Alan White for the heads up on this) and this has really raised the importance of good GPX quality at the expense of the individual features of the sites, however it's too early to say what features I will stop using.
    Do you have any more info on this (such as a guide!).
    I hadn't realised that this was possible, but it sounds most interesting...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Gerrie View Post
    This is a whole different can of worms, and may be better left for a different thread, and probably a different time.
    I agree, the GAGB said they will have a look at the commercial aspect in the near future, so we'll just wait and see.
    I'm just going outside, and may be some time!

    www.jacobitecaching.co.uk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Humphrey View Post
    Do you have any more info on this (such as a guide!). I hadn't realised that this was possible, but it sounds most interesting...
    You can get GPX files from both TerraCache and NaviCache, even if you are not a subscriber. They both contain the locations and very basic information about the cache, but they do not contain descriptions. I believe you do get the descriptions if you subscribe to TC, but I don't know if there is a way to get any more detail for Navicache.

    They both import into GSAK, and I've been working on importing them into my own applications, for example translating numeric cache sizes in the TC files into regular, small, micro, etc., splitting up the cache name and cache setter, which appear in the same tag on Navicache, and so on.

    Last week I notified TC about a bug in their GPX files that moved all caches between the Greenwich Meridian and 1 degree west into the eastern hemisphere, and that has been fixed now.

    There is also a problem with some Navicache cache locations, which appear as lat 0, long 0. I will raise this with them.

    Navicache have a similar difficulty and terrain rating system to GS, but the file doesn't contain them. TC don't have difficulty/terrain, but a slightly more sophisticated rating system. At present this doesn't import well (i.e. at all).

    So, you get the co-ordinates on your GPS, but you don't get much detail in GSAK.

    Rgds, Andy

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    Thanks Andy: I've spotted the GPX download on Navicache now. Perhaps I'll attempt to register with TC too: at least it provides an alternative cache experience for a change.

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    Alan White Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Gerrie View Post
    I don't think its actually got active in the UK yet... mainly german and dutch I believe! Don;t know much about it, but I believe its very region-based (sounds ideal!) so a UK site would be opencaching.co.uk

    http://www.opencaching.de/

    its in german though!
    That's what I thought - I wondered if I'd missed something.

    AIUI Opencaching is a set of open source software which can be implemented on a suitable web host to provide a listing site. I looked at it a couple of years ago but the German is beyond mine and my IT skills aren't in that field. It could be a fairly easy way to set up one or more listing sites more suited to GB and run by cachers.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by amberel View Post
    You can get GPX files from both TerraCache and NaviCache, even if you are not a subscriber.
    You can? How do you do that then? And do they have an equivalent to PQs? And, recalling a comment sandvika made somewhere, what do the memberships cost?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan White View Post
    You can? How do you do that then? And do they have an equivalent to PQs? And, recalling a comment sandvika made somewhere, what do the memberships cost?
    On Navicache you search for caches. There is a checkbox against each cache in the list, you can check them individually, or there is a button for "all". You then click a button to add them to "your" list. You don't have to individually visit each cache page. If you wish, you look at other pages or carry on searching in other areas. When you have finished you go to your home page and click download, and they all arrive in one file. It's a system that works quite well for a hundred caches but which would struggle to cope with volumes such as we have on GS.

    On TerraCaching you go to your To Do list (for which you must be registered) and just click on GPX.

    I'm not sure what I could do with GPX files if I was a GS non-subscriber. I THINK as a non-subscribing member to either TC or N I get more than I would as a GC non-subscriber, but less than I do as a GC subscriber. So not a direct equivalent to GS PQs, no, but not bad.

    Edited to say I use the word subscriber to mean "pay money to". You have to register with (but without needing to pay money to) both TC and N before you can get GPX files.

    I don't now how much membership of TC costs. You can donate to N but I'm not sure if you can subscribe as such.

    Rgds, Andy
    Last edited by amberel; 26th November 2008 at 09:11 AM.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by amberel View Post
    You have to register with (but without needing to pay money to) both TC and N before you can get GPX files.
    Ah, that'll be why I couldn't see the way. Thanks, Andy.

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    Well, I didn't get round to registering with Terracache in time for last weekend's visit to the drought-stricken, arid South East of England (), but I did manage three Navicaches (thanks to Robin Lovelock). I also found a tricky puzzle cache quite by accident. And an "APE" cache into the bargain (although that was rather more planned). A lovely couple of days caching.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Humphrey View Post
    Well, I didn't get round to registering with Terracache in time for last weekend's visit to the drought-stricken, arid South East of England (), but I did manage three Navicaches (thanks to Robin Lovelock) ...
    Which ones did you do? I've found several really old Navicaches (including one previously not found for nearly 5 years), and some I've found the first stage of a multi but not the final; overall about a 50% hit rate.

    Also done 2 Terracaches. Round here there are more Navis than Terras, mostly due to Robin, but the Navis are all VERY old.

    Rgds, Andy

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    I did Caesar's Camp, then the two Dinton Pastures ones. "Easy Dinton" was deep in a thorn bush, but I spotted it and used the geocaching apparatus known as a "pokey stick" to persuade it to move within reach. They were all in decent condition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Humphrey View Post
    Well, I didn't get round to registering with Terracache in time for last weekend's visit to the drought-stricken, arid South East of England (), but I did manage three Navicaches (thanks to Robin Lovelock). I also found a tricky puzzle cache quite by accident. And an "APE" cache into the bargain (although that was rather more planned). A lovely couple of days caching.
    tricky?! I think not! Footsore caches are the relatively easy ones in the area! If you think thats tricky...

    So have you worked out how it should be solved, or not too fussed?

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    As I had a strict itinerary that day (18 miles walking), there wasn't much point in attempting to solve a puzzle cache, only to find that the cache itself was perhaps a couple of miles off route. Now that I've found the box, there doesn't seem much motivation to solve the puzzle. It did look tricky enough at first glance though...

    It's interesting that in certain types of landscape, you can probably log a few caches just by wandering around and looking in likely spots. A strange feeling when you have a cache but need to open the box to find out which one it is!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Humphrey View Post
    I did Caesar's Camp, then the two Dinton Pastures ones. "Easy Dinton" was deep in a thorn bush, but I spotted it and used the geocaching apparatus known as a "pokey stick" to persuade it to move within reach. They were all in decent condition.
    I did Caesar's Camp a month ago, but not yet the other two. Guess I probably will at some point. Actually, for Navicaches those ones are almost indecently busy :-)

    Rgds, Andy

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    Yes, there's no harm in livening up the Navicache scene a bit. In fact, a new Navicache has just appeared in the Godstone area (Surrey).
    Every little helps!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Humphrey View Post
    Yes, there's no harm in livening up the Navicache scene a bit. In fact, a new Navicache has just appeared in the Godstone area (Surrey).
    Every little helps!
    Were it not for the fact that it will still be pitch dark as we make for our appointed passage through the Chunnel I would be very tempted to seek this one on the way. Regrettably, on the return it will be pitch dark again and we will be shattered!

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    It's quite feasible by dark: a great wide track leads all the way from the luxury parking area. Lovely views too! But I'll understand if you prefer to wimp out. Don't let me pressurise you.

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