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Thread: Terracaching and Landowner Permission Issues. TC Liasion request

  1. #1

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    Exclamation Terracaching and Landowner Permission Issues. TC Liasion request

    In several topics on this board it has been stated by Terracaching Members that if there is a issue with a cache, initial contact must be made with the cache owner and if this fails with that persons Sponsors.

    As a GC Reviewer I act at times as a liaison between the Landowner and cache owner. The Landowner having contacted Groundspeak or occasionally GAGB, after finding one or more caches on their Land without permission. In some cases I have been able to get retrospective permission for those caches, by working with the landowner, I usually start of by apologising for the placement of the caches without their permission which makes a good opening with them. On one occasion the cache in question after much research by both Groundspeak and myself ended up not being a GC cache or a Navicache [both sites web addresses were in the log book, but no logs]. The assumption being it was a container placed but never submitted on GC at least, which resulted in a upset Landowner who uplifted the container.

    As the Terracache members have clearly stated there is no other way of contacting a cache owner apart from the above or going on to the TC forums in hope that the owner or someone in contact with this person see's the post. Which is not something you can expect off a Landowner, as they would have to join the site just to try and find out who owns the cache.

    Will one of the TC members step forward and be prepared to act as Liaison with Landowners in the event that a complaint is made that a cache which turns out to be a TC one is found by the Landowner. The idea being that they will work with the Landowner in confidence [a example of a recent issue, I was contacted by a Landowner who had found out about 2 caches on land owned by this person. This person was happy for the caches to remain provide contact details for the owner were provided. The cache owner was wary of providing the details to someone unknown, and the landowner was not prepared to provide theirs to someone who had placed caches on their land without asking them first. Acting as a intermediary I was able to resolve the issue to both partys satisfaction]. So is a TC Member willing to come forward and publicly act as such a contact. This person would have to be willing contact the cache owner and sponsors about the cache on behalf of the Landowner, this person would be contacted directly either by the GAGB Committee, the GC UK Reviewers or by Groundspeak in the case of any complaint we receive from a Landowner where we believe the cache in question is a TC one. Any takers from the TC Membership.

    This is a genuine request, to benefit the UK caching community, and is not a wind up!

    Deceangi
    My post is my personal opinion and as such you do not have my permission to quote me outside of these forums!

    Dave
    Brenin Tegeingl
    Formerly known as Mancunian Pyrocacher on GC

  2. #2

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    Is this really necessary? Why would there be no e-mail or phone number in the cache?
    Surely if the cache has been left with no contact details, no easy way for the GAGB to contact the owner, and no permission, then the landowner can simply muggle it. In effect, it's abandoned.

    There may, of course, have been a misunderstanding on the permission (e.g. permission was granted, but the person finding the cache didn't know). But, when giving no contact details, you're almost asking for a confiscation to take place.

  3. #3
    Icenians Guest

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    Given that the total number of terracaches in the UK is 150 and there are less than a dozen active Terracachers in the UK I really think that the likelyhood of a cache placement issue is far greater in the the GC direction rather than TC

    And no, I'm not volounteering. With my tack and deplomacy skills I could destroy caching for all very quickly

    Kev

  4. #4
    Icenians Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mancunian View Post
    As the Terracache members have clearly stated there is no other way of contacting a cache owner apart from the above or going on to the TC forums in hope that the owner or someone in contact with this person see's the post.
    Or he could simply contact the cache owner from the contact details on or in the cache.

    I don't quite see how a landowner expects to contact www.geocaching.com when we all place the web address www.terracaching.com on or in our caches.

    Any landowner that is happy to go beyond the website, search for caching in general, find geocaching.com, report the cache, and get beyond an "it's not one of ours" response is probably capable of whacking out an email to the contact on the cache.

    Kev

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Icenians View Post
    Or he could simply contact the cache owner from the contact details on or in the cache.

    I don't quite see how a landowner expects to contact www.geocaching.com when we all place the web address www.terracaching.com on or in our caches.

    Any landowner that is happy to go beyond the website, search for caching in general, find geocaching.com, report the cache, and get beyond an "it's not one of ours" response is probably capable of whacking out an email to the contact on the cache.

    Kev
    Sorry but experience has shown me that not all cachers put any sort of contact information in or on their caches, to believe that all cachers do so is naive.

    Can you with 100% certainty state that every TC cache listed on that site in the UK at the moment or in the future has or will have contact details on or in the container? As the No of UK TC caches increases, the likelihood of caches with no contact details increases. Just as the likelihood of Landowner issues increases with the increase in No's.

    As for determining who owns a GC cache, as long as a Reviewer has the coordinates of the container even if they are approximate, we can check to see if who owns it. Please remember we can see the hidden waypoint details for stages and finals of Multi Caches and Puzzle caches.

    Deci
    My post is my personal opinion and as such you do not have my permission to quote me outside of these forums!

    Dave
    Brenin Tegeingl
    Formerly known as Mancunian Pyrocacher on GC

  6. #6
    fraggle69 Guest

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    ok i'll do it. I can see you're trying to build bridges here. As I understand it, you want someone to identify it as a terracache and locate it's owner, positively getting the land owner to agree to keep the cache in place and prevent bloodshed?

    put me down for 6months and we'll look at the situation in say late august?

    as

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by fraggle69 View Post
    ok i'll do it. I can see you're trying to build bridges here. As I understand it, you want someone to identify it as a terracache and locate it's owner, positively getting the land owner to agree to keep the cache in place and prevent bloodshed?

    put me down for 6months and we'll look at the situation in say late august?

    as
    Thanks for that offer! I've got a great deal of experience at being "piggy in the middle" between landowner and cacher in these situations, so feel free to contact me if you run into any problems.
    ​​Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light. (Dylan Thomas)​


  8. #8

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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by fraggle69 View Post
    ok i'll do it. I can see you're trying to build bridges here. As I understand it, you want someone to identify it as a terracache and locate it's owner, positively getting the land owner to agree to keep the cache in place and prevent bloodshed?

    put me down for 6months and we'll look at the situation in say late august?

    as
    Thank you for stepping forward :cheers:, hopefully you'll never have to act in the role. But it's good to know that the potential contingency is covered if needed, rather than have to scramble around reacting after the fact. The more professional a image we present to Landowners,the more they will be prepared to work with us.

    And yes before anyone comments, at times we are anything but professional .

    Deci
    My post is my personal opinion and as such you do not have my permission to quote me outside of these forums!

    Dave
    Brenin Tegeingl
    Formerly known as Mancunian Pyrocacher on GC

  9. #9

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    I've discovered this thread after it's a done deal, thanks Fraser for stepping up.

    I would concur with Deceangi that incorrectly or unlabelled cache containers create the risk of reputational damage to our game irrespective of where they are listed, so I think this is something where GAGB could help to field inbound queries. After all there is a committee phone number precisely for this purpose.

    First, I would suggest that every cache should be identifiable as such from the outside. Over 18 months of caching I've discovered that the vinyl labels are durable but the "permanent" marker pen to provide identification on them is not, so I'm switching to laminated identifiers fastened with double-sided carpet tape on larger caches and self-adhesive heat-printed plastic labels for small ones.

    Secondly, there is really no excuse for NOT having a stash note inside the cache. These should provide owner contact information in addition to the usual text for accidental finders. Mine include my postal address, email address, web site address and the URLs of all the listing sites I use, so the same standard stash note serves all. These are also laminated to make sure they are still fully serviceable even in if the cache gets soggy.

    However, stating the way things should be does not solve the problem of all the caches in the field that are not properly identified. To this end I would suggest a standard GAGB stash note that can be added to any cache that is found to be unidentifiable. By carrying GAGB contact details it can be used at any cache in UK. Carrying a modest supply of such laminated stash notes whilst caching is not exactly a burden. The cache ID and owner caching name can be written with permanent marker on the back of the stash note when it is left so that any enquiry fielded by GAGB has sufficient information to identify the cache in question.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by sandvika View Post
    First, I would suggest that every cache should be identifiable as such from the outside. Over 18 months of caching I've discovered that the vinyl labels are durable but the "permanent" marker pen to provide identification on them is not, so I'm switching to laminated identifiers fastened with double-sided carpet tape on larger caches and self-adhesive heat-printed plastic labels for small ones.



    .
    We,ve changed from paint markings to making our own small " geo cache contents harmless " laminated labels .
    We place it facing outwards inside a transparent container and stick it in place from the inside using duck tape .
    Readable from outside but nice and dry inside .

    We also leave a personal email address on laminated stash note ,so muggles could contact us directly .
    We like Greens

  11. #11

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    Ive just created a 6 per A4 sheet mini stash note with the GAGB logo like this

    Want me to email it to the GAGB ? or change it
    i went for 6 per A4 to ensure its small enought for a 35mm and you dont have to fill your pockets with lrge notes
    the back is clear for other notes etc
    it does not look like the preview below but contains those words.


    GAGB has set up a phone message service on 07092 040 416*. This can be used to contact the GAGB committee. Any messages regarding that cache will be passed on to the cache owner.


    *Calls to the number are charged at 50p per minute at all times.



    Contact the owner of this cache on



    Email the owner of this cache at
    "If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning."

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by markandlynn View Post
    Ive just created a 6 per A4 sheet mini stash note with the GAGB logo like this

    Want me to email it to the GAGB ? or change it
    i went for 6 per A4 to ensure its small enought for a 35mm and you dont have to fill your pockets with lrge notes
    the back is clear for other notes etc
    it does not look like the preview below but contains those words.


    GAGB has set up a phone message service on 07092 040 416*. This can be used to contact the GAGB committee. Any messages regarding that cache will be passed on to the cache owner.


    *Calls to the number are charged at 50p per minute at all times.



    Contact the owner of this cache on



    Email the owner of this cache at
    Thanks for doing this, 1/6 A4 film canister format is exactly the format I had in mind. Please can you send it to me by email

    Roderick

  13. #13
    Alan White Guest

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    The labelling part of this thread probably deserves a thread of its own but unless a mod wants to split it....

    There are some good points in here about labelling. I have always used the green Groundspeak-style laminated stickers on the outside of the container and they seem to last well. I write only the name of the cache on it in (theoretically) indelible ink. Because my caches are listed only on Groundspeak then this gives all the information necessary for anyone to contact me via Groundspeak.

    However, this of course isn't perfect. Firstly it's bespoke to Groundspeak: I couldn't use those stickers on a cache listed elsewhere. Secondly, it relies on the person taking the trouble to contact Groundspeak and for Groundspeak to pass on the details (not everyone has web access, or will want to go to the trouble). Lastly, it doesn't conform to my own view that the cache is the responsibility of the cache owner not the listing site.

    I will not place my personal contact details in a cache. This would be equivalent to placing unshredded personal details in my dustbin, and I don't do that either. This, of course, is the reason for GAGB's phone number but I wouldn't place a 50p/minute phone number in a cache, either. Putting myself in the position of the person wanting to contact me, would I phone a 50p/minute number - for anything? Answer: no.

    I do think that the GAGB phone number is a great idea but it needs to be a standard call. 0845, though not standard rate, is probably more familiar to people. One of the new routable, standard rate 03 numbers would be better. I have no idea of the cost to GAGB of either of these.

    With a suitable phone number on, I'd like to see GAGB supply at a reasonable cost stickers similar to the Groundspeak ones. They wouldn't identify a listing site and would be pre-printed with the GAGB phone number. This seems to me to solve all the problems except, of course, that of getting the cache owner to put them on the cache .

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan White View Post
    I do think that the GAGB phone number is a great idea but it needs to be a standard call. 0845, though not standard rate, is probably more familiar to people. One of the new routable, standard rate 03 numbers would be better. I have no idea of the cost to GAGB of either of these.

    With a suitable phone number on, I'd like to see GAGB supply at a reasonable cost stickers similar to the Groundspeak ones. They wouldn't identify a listing site and would be pre-printed with the GAGB phone number. This seems to me to solve all the problems except, of course, that of getting the cache owner to put them on the cache .
    Good points, Alan. I'll ask that we have another look at the premium rate phone line, and see what other options are available. Any suggestions would be most welcome?

    The stickers are a good idea, also. We have committee members who deal with geocaching merchandise on a daily basis, we'll get their advice.
    I'm just going outside, and may be some time!

    www.jacobitecaching.co.uk

  15. #15
    Icenians Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan White View Post
    However, this of course isn't perfect. Firstly it's bespoke to Groundspeak: I couldn't use those stickers on a cache listed elsewhere. .
    Just for the record, tc have a similar label for use in TC caches.

    Kev

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by jacobite View Post
    Good points, Alan. I'll ask that we have another look at the premium rate phone line, and see what other options are available. Any suggestions would be most welcome?
    How about putting Monger's mobile number in every cache?!

  17. #17

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    make a change form PAF's

    That's the pre watershed version

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Gerrie View Post
    How about putting Monger's mobile number in every cache?!
    LOL. Aye, I'm sure he won't mind
    I'm just going outside, and may be some time!

    www.jacobitecaching.co.uk

  19. #19
    nobbynobbs Guest

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    i have adapted the standard gc one to show the gagb website and phone number. that way the person can always come here and email us or leave a message on the forums etc...

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobbynobbs View Post
    i have adapted the standard gc one to show the gagb website and phone number. that way the person can always come here and email us or leave a message on the forums etc...
    I've done much the same thing, Matt, but it gives details of my site and how to contact me directly should there be a problem with the cache.

    Edit: Sorry, way off topic there. Bedtime.
    I'm just going outside, and may be some time!

    www.jacobitecaching.co.uk

  21. #21
    fraggle69 Guest

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    it's tough to markup a nano on the outside, suggest an email address inside, or webaddress.
    would it be in everyones interest to have a www.gagb.co.uk/muggle setup and this can be put on/in caches. I thinks the page could contain all the stuff a muggle needs to know especially if its been found on their land.
    You have a good chance of someone coming back at you this way.
    arrr

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