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Thread: Caches on FC Dorset land

  1. #1

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    Default Caches on FC Dorset land

    The Forestry Commission are becoming concerned at a recent rapid increase in the number of caches placed on the land they own or manage in Dorset.

    For the moment, they're happy for the committee to try to find a way of managing the situation, rather than just set a limit themselves. If you're a GAGB Member you can follow our discussion in the Committee Discussions forum in the new Members Only section.

    In the meantime, could I ask anyone who's thinking of placing a new cache on that land to put it on hold for the moment, to avoid precipitating any escalation of the situation? Thanks!
    ​​Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light. (Dylan Thomas)​


  2. #2

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    It would be helpful for those non-members who take a general interest in such matters, to give a brief explanation of why this is seen as a cause for concern from the FC's viewpoint.

    To an outsider, it would appear that the Dorset FC has to do exactly the same amount of work with 100 caches in a given area as they have with 1 cache, i.e. not a lot. So it might be enlightening to hear about their concerns and whether these are based on accurate and informed opinion.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Humphrey View Post
    It would be helpful for those non-members who take a general interest in such matters, to give a brief explanation of why this is seen as a cause for concern from the FC's viewpoint.

    To an outsider, it would appear that the Dorset FC has to do exactly the same amount of work with 100 caches in a given area as they have with 1 cache, i.e. not a lot. So it might be enlightening to hear about their concerns and whether these are based on accurate and informed opinion.
    I take your points, both about an explanation and about their concerns.

    To be honest, I've not said much more in the Committee Discussions thread than I've said here, as I'm not really clear myself what their reasons are. I think one of their main concerns may be admin, i.e. keeping track of them all. I think they may have slight concerns about cacher trails being left, but I don't think they see that as a big issue as they check all caches placed there to ensure the location is suitable. I think the main thing is probably just a general feeling that "this is getting too big and unmanageable - perhaps we should put a cap on it".

    Another possible issue is their accidental destruction of caches - that's happened in Dorset and in the New Forest, for example by way of gorse burning (including to one of my own). When that happens its not good for either us or them, and of course the greater the number of caches the more likelihood there is of that happening.

    My opinion, though, is that it's their land and that we have to do things their way regardless of their reasons. Whilst I have a very good working relationship with my contact there, as does Matt (nobbynobbs) with his New Forest FC contact, they're not the people who make these decisions.
    ​​Do not go gentle into that good night.
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  4. #4

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    Thanks for supplying a bit more detail, Bill. I suspect that, rather than get into cache regulating, it would be better to really understand what their worries are. Possibly, they have misinterpreted the game to some extent.

    If it's that they feel the need to manage and administer the caches in some way, it might be beneficial all round to simply agree that they have no responsibility for them at all and are not required to take them into account in any way. The ones I've set in working plantations have been on this basis; should the area be subject to forestry operations and the workers come across a cache of mine then it's possible that they'll know what it is. That's all there is to it. I never got the officials to agree to anything specific when I asked permission, and they didn't want to know the exact locations. Probably because they understood the nature of the
    game and realised that they didn't need to know.

    Should they bulldoze the area or burn it without removing the caches first, then it's too bad for me but I won't be trying to sue them.It's up to me to keep an eye on things and remove a cache if operations are getting too close.

  5. #5

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    I think HH has it.
    They -FC- have no responsibility for the cache.
    It's Nice that they care.

    They don't just decided "Lets cut all the trees down today", so there is time to contact GAGB and say "We will be working in "this" area from "date" and it will be closed to the public.
    Which would give GAGB a chance to contact the cache owners, who then have a chance to remove the cache/s.

    FC could always join GC.com to see where the caches are!
    Last edited by Bear and Ragged; 26th March 2009 at 08:14 PM. Reason: speelinn
    I have a Geocaching problem...
    Work gets in the way!

    * Cache Walker -Caching by byway, not highway! CacheWalker.co.uk
    Walking and Caching in Warwickshire, Worcestershire, Gloucestershire areas

  6. #6

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    I wasn't on the committee then, but I think when negotiations were taking place for the original FC New Forest agreement, one or two of the then committee members took one or two FC staff caching to demonstrate what it was all about, and I could be wrong but I rather think one of those staff may have been my present FC Dorset contact. If I'm right on that then at least some of the FC staff know exactly what caching is all about.

    More than that, rangers do check some if not all of the caches, so they should have a pretty good idea too. Unfortunately though, decisions like these come from the top, and who really knows what the people at the top know or understand.

    Regarding locations, the FC Dorset and New Forest both require us to supply OS grid refs, so they know exactly where the caches are. When caches get accidentally destroyed (and it doesn't happen often) I think it's just a case of one hand not knowing what the other's doing. In theory they should notify us of gorse burning and so on, but sometimes things slip through.

    From the agreement: "Forest maintenance operations (such as gorse burning) will be notified when possible. It may be necessary for caches to be removed if possible or temporarily suspended. However, neither the NF FC or GAGB will be responsible for any cache destroyed." Though that states NF FC it's in the part of the agreement that covers Dorset too.
    ​​Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light. (Dylan Thomas)​


  7. #7

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    I did the FC negotiations with two FC staff, one of whom has moved on and the other is Bill's ongoing contact. We certainly discussed the nature of caching at length over several meetings and many months.

    They were clear that they wouldn't be held responsible for lost/damaged caches caused by maintenance work or anything else. However, they do try to be helpful.

  8. #8

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    As others have commented, it's hard to make useful suggestions if it's not really clear exactly what are the specific concerns of the FC Dorset.

    I understand that they are seeing an increase in caches placements on their land and I was just wondering whether they also get notification of caches which are archived? In other words, is their perception all in one direction? (Or perhaps very few caches get archived? )

    I was also wondering whether anyone at the FC is accurately collating the information about the new caches as they are published. Although you say that they get informed of the OS references, I wonder whether perhaps this just gets dropped into a large file somewhere, marked "Geocaches", and all they see is this file getting thicker and thicker!

    Would it be of any assistance to them if, say, twice a year, someone* sent them a Memory Map overlay of the "current state of play", of active geocaches on their land? Something they could pin on a notice board for easy reference?

    My apologies if this would simply not be feasible due the number of areas they actually manage and the time such a task would take for the someone* involved!

    *Definition: An individual with time on their hands, or one who draws the short straw.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs Blorenge View Post
    As others have commented, it's hard to make useful suggestions if it's not really clear exactly what are the specific concerns of the FC Dorset.

    I understand that they are seeing an increase in caches placements on their land and I was just wondering whether they also get notification of caches which are archived? In other words, is their perception all in one direction? (Or perhaps very few caches get archived? )

    I was also wondering whether anyone at the FC is accurately collating the information about the new caches as they are published. Although you say that they get informed of the OS references, I wonder whether perhaps this just gets dropped into a large file somewhere, marked "Geocaches", and all they see is this file getting thicker and thicker!

    Would it be of any assistance to them if, say, twice a year, someone* sent them a Memory Map overlay of the "current state of play", of active geocaches on their land? Something they could pin on a notice board for easy reference?

    My apologies if this would simply not be feasible due the number of areas they actually manage and the time such a task would take for the someone* involved!

    *Definition: An individual with time on their hands, or one who draws the short straw.
    I understand that it's difficult to make suggestions with so little information about the FC's concerns, but what I've already said is all I'm able to provide.

    Many of the caches on that land are on my watch list, and I notify the FC if one is archived. Some do slip through though, but some very helpful local cachers tell me of ones they know of that are archived, so hopefully we cover most if not all of them.

    Thanks for your Memory Map overlay suggestion - I'll put it to the committee.
    ​​Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light. (Dylan Thomas)​


  10. #10
    Team Sieni Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill D (wwh) View Post
    ... Matt (nobbynobbs) ...
    Completely OT, but I find it a very sad disillusion to learn that Nobbynobbs name isn't really Nobby Nobbs.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Sieni View Post
    Completely OT, but I find it a very sad disillusion to learn that Nobbynobbs name isn't really Nobby Nobbs.
    You mean you've never read the Disk World series of books

    Deci
    My post is my personal opinion and as such you do not have my permission to quote me outside of these forums!

    Dave
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    Formerly known as Mancunian Pyrocacher on GC

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mancunian View Post
    You mean you've never read the Disk World series of books

    Deci
    No, sorry. I'm not a big reader of fiction.

    Actually did read one, a long time ago (I liked it too), and I heard a bit of another one serialised on Radio 7 a while back.

    I'm still sorry that it's not his real name.

  13. #13
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    LOL sorry to disappoint. I think that my daughter might have some complaints should i change it!

  14. #14

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    The committee voted in favour of the amendments to the agreement which I've pasted below. I put them to FC Dorset, and they've now come back to me saying that they consider them "very fair", and they won't now place a limit on the number of caches on their land.

    We hope most cachers will find the amendments preferable to a limit. We're all used to proximity limits, so though this one is larger than usual it's not a new concept. Also, the requirement that early stages of multis be virtuals will rule out a lot of "micros in the woods", which I imagine some of you at least will be pleased with!

    ---
    FC Dorset special requirements.


    From 16th April 2009 the following special requirements apply to caches on
    FC Dorset land.

    No cache may be placed on FC Dorset land within 1 kilometer of an
    existing cache or caches on FC Dorset land. Caches within 1 kilometer but
    not on FC Dorset land will be disregarded.

    If a parcel of FC Dorset land has an uncrossable barrier running through
    it, for example but not limited to a dual carriageway with no means of
    crossing it, caches on either side of that barrier but within 1 kilometer
    of each other may be allowed, at the discretion of the Association and the
    Forestry Commission.

    Multi caches on FC Dorset land may only have one physical container, the
    final one. All other stages must be virtual ones.

    Existing caches which don't meet the above requirements will be
    grandfathered in and allowed to remain in place.

    If an existing cache is archived, then later unarchived, the unarchived
    cache must meet the above requirements.

    ---

    As of today, those amendments form part of the Agreement between the Association and FC Dorset.
    Last edited by Bill D (wwh); 16th April 2009 at 12:41 PM. Reason: Accuracy
    ​​Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light. (Dylan Thomas)​


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