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  1. #1

    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    North Wales
    Posts
    675

    Exclamation Off Road Access with a Motor Vehicle

    Whilst I'm aware we have many responsible members who actively use Motor Vehicles to access caches along Off Road Routes. Would all persons intending to do so please insure that they have access to up to date maps and legal status of the route they intend to take. And make sure that they understand the legal status of all routes they intend to use.

    Reason behind the request is that I have received a complaint regarding someone accessing a cache situated on a Restricted Byway using a Motor Vehicle. A route along which the usage of such vehicles is prohibited. It would appear that the person involved was using out of date access information [map]. This access has been brought to the attention of the local CC, who are looking into the issue.

    Please note I am not out to castigate anyone, and would request that no mention of the cache or person involved is mentioned [any mention will result in a request to the poster and Forum Moderators to delete the post, there is a very justified reason for this]. Rather this is a attempt to bring the issue to the attention of the community, hopefully allowing the experienced 4x4 Off Roaders somewhere to educate the rest of the community regarding legal and responsible access off road using Motor Vehicles.

    Deceangi
    My post is my personal opinion and as such you do not have my permission to quote me outside of these forums!

    Dave
    Brenin Tegeingl
    Formerly known as Mancunian Pyrocacher on GC

  2. #2

    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Wiltshire
    Posts
    5,520

    Default

    As Deci has said, this incident seems to have arisen due to use of an out of date map.

    The status of many off-road tracks seems to have changed in recent years. Can any regular off-roaders advise about avoiding similar situations in the future?

    Also, if you own a cache which is on an off-road track which could be used by motor vehicles, or is likely to be visited by people who might drive on such a track nearby, you might want to check with your local rights of way authority whether or not use of motor vehicles is permitted there, and put a notice on the cache page if it isn't.
    ​​Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light. (Dylan Thomas)​


  3. #3

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    here of course
    Posts
    640

    Default

    Many legal green lanes are now have TRO's (traffic restriction orders) and some have specific open dates. I offroad a fair bit but always try to make sure that its legal it will soon be illegal to drive "roads" that have been in use for hundreds of years

  4. #4

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Church Warsop, Notts
    Posts
    518

    Default

    Surely the complaint should have been ignored by Groundspeak, as it's nothing to do with their geocaching site, and merely passed on to the GAGB so that the cache owner can be advised (with a view to making the access situation clear)?

    It sounds like the "offence" was to drive down a lane which was believed to be legal (mistakenly, as it turns out), but was RECENTLY made out of bounds to traffic. The key point is whether there was prominent signage; it would be unreasonable to expect everyone to carry up-to-date access information with them at all times, when these things are so frequently changed. If the prominent signs were ignored, then the complaint should be considered by the responsible (CC) official and action taken as seen fit. But no signs, no case.

    The fact that the motive was to log a geocache is irrelevant. If they'd been going for a picnic having spotted a likely area on the map, you'd hardly expect the map makers to pay attention to a complaint about people using the road.

  5. #5

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Stoke-on-Trent
    Posts
    128

    Default

    Unfortuantly, most (if not all) cash strapped councils will restrict access to byways instead of maintaining them.

    I will only go 'green laning' if the routes have been properly researched and checked against the definitive map. OS maps can no longer be relied on for access rights to byways.

    TomTom has unpaved roads in it's database, but I do not know if any of them are restricted.

    As a repsonsible offroader, I belong to clubs which follow the 'Tread Lightly' code of practice. I also prefer to have my fun on specialised offroad sites.

    As a cacher, I prefer to park up and walk, so I can get some exercise and fresh air.

    Ivan
    Paved Roads: Another fine example of unnecessary Government spending!

  6. #6

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Shropshire
    Posts
    322

    Default

    Lol at being expected to throw all my old OS maps away to buy new ones,update tom tom, autoroute and memory map every so often.
    "If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning."

  7. #7
    messe Guest

    Default The Offender

    Thank you `Big D` for not disclosing my ID when this was first bought to your attention. This was done due to pending possible legal reasons. There are a coupe of points that i think all cachers,not just 4x4`s should know. THe map i was using was a downloaded OS map @8 hours old.So the is no need to throw away all your old ones...cos there not old. The track of the map showed it as being a BOAT (Byway Open to All Traffic).I was always under the impression the an OS map is the Bible and that what it showed was true and correct.I have since found out that this is not true.The Byway had been reclassified in 2006,no cars are allowed.This was not known to me.There was no signage to support this.But alas,being unknowledged is no case for defence it would seem?.How the everyday walker is supposed to know all about these missing details i do not know
    The Council in question has has a lot of 4x4s going where they like...tearing down signs, and so have had enough. In my case the CC seem to have seen that it was a mistake and no malice meant and are trying to get the police not to press ahead with a Prosection,but to deal with this with a `Section 59`...a warning that if seen or caught on a Byway not meant to be a prosecution will be forthcoming.This i can only hope will happen.
    They have seen that education (Through the GC site) is a far better way then to go around nicking everyone.With education,the ones like me learn the message,where as the ones that do not give a *,will do it anyway.I agree that 4x4`s do damage...but so does riding Horse Back,Moutain Biking and even Walking if in a very nature sensitive Area,but all are clearly marked as such...In my case it was the local farmer who told me i was not to be there,....after the event.I can only thank the farmer for trying to rescue me..even if to no avail.I was well and truely stuck.My freedom came after many hours of digging and using all the rubbish (Sheets of Corragated Iron) found in the bushes around me!.I always take my rubbish home and hate seeing it when in the countryside..but on this occassion i will let it be..Thank you litter louts for your contribution to our lovely countryside!.My advise if not sure..dont do it
    I do feel though that if paying to have a map,it should a least be accurite,so what i want to know is..Why do OS not update thier maps?..or do they?.Surely if you download a map it should be right up to date.
    I have just looked at two OS Maps of the same area...it has been updated...to show a Motorway!.Will let you all know what the final outcome is

  8. #8
    nobbynobbs Guest

    Default

    The thing to remember in all cases involving UK law is that ignorance never has been a defence. It may be taken into consideration that you ( and this is a generic you, not a personal reply to messe or anything) have attempted to establish the legality of what you are doing.

    At the end of the day it's known that council's are redesignating green lanes due to the amount of damage being caused ( again, I know this damage isn't solely due to 4x4 users. I'm just stating a fact) so it might be not unreasonable for you to check with the council prior to using one or just err on the side of caution and not use it.

    As regards why OS not up to date? They map the entire world. They have extremely detailed maps of the entire UK. Can you imagine the logistical nightmare of trying to keep on top of every single change of byeway status as well as all the new housing estates, roads, changes to rivers, landslides, construction......


    Hopefully something good has come of this incident in that people have been made aware of the pitfalls of relying on OS maps and the eer changing status of greenways has been highlighted.

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