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Thread: Caching as it used to be

  1. #51
    monkeyhanger Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by keehotee View Post
    Never being one to not put my money where my (quite over-worked) mouth is, I've started a new series... [blatant self promotion] Church Macro's [/blatant self promotion]
    Before everyone gets completely carried away, can I just point out that;
    Church Micro's do not HAVE to be MICRO's. Some ( and they are quite clearly marked and easily identifiable) are not
    A few are
    339 - Eclectic Penguin, 458 - Jabawokee, 601,602,603,605,659,660 - all by GentryAlveston, a whole load by Mcwomble (515,543-546) and many many more that I have neither time nor inclination to list as I am sure you get the picture.

    All sizes are clearly marked, if you do not like Micros; then DONT DO THEM!

    Groundspeak make it very easy for us to select our caches to find, so why are people indiscriminately waging war against a particular type of cache?

    "Micro bashing" in general is getting out of hand as some micro's are very cleverly hidden and more difficult to find than an ammo box in the only tree in the field. Maybe that's why certain cachers don't like them?

    This series is open to individual interpretation, but essentially, they should highlight a church and it's history to encourage at least a quick look inside/around before hunting the cache. Not many logs reflect that, but some cache pages are very informative and do just what caching should be all about, encourage you to visit an interesting location which you may not have visited otherwise.

    And another point I must make here, Churches are places of worship and remembrance, out of courtesy to some greiving relatives it may be more prudent to have a cache placed a discreet distance away rather than in full view. Kehotee's Macro guidelines of 10m of Church precincts, regular sized and wheelchair accessible will be a challenge to HIDE, rather more easy to find I should think!

    Interestingly, there are over 750 Church Micro's already placed, and with over 20,000 find by over 3,000 cachers, it seems not everyone thinks the same way as Kehotee.
    Thank goodness
    Last edited by monkeyhanger; 23rd July 2009 at 04:09 PM.

  2. #52
    SidAndBob Guest

    Default Have you tried GCvote?

    Cache quality has undeniably dropped, but more in some areas than others.
    I believe the trend for big trails and dull series has fuelled the "It all about the numbers" mentality. I personally would far rather walk 12 miles for one really good cache than for 20 dull caches.
    There are plenty of good caches out there, but you need to seek them out. For example, if we go to the Cotswolds we will do Wrighty caches, because they maintain a consistent standard. There are other cachers (who shall remain nameless) who we would avoid like the plague.

    We have just started using GCvote, which ranks caches in a similar way to the old G:UK site, but through a Firefox Add-on. Very nice.:socool:

  3. #53

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    quote=monkeyhanger;34271

    All sizes are clearly marked, if you do not like Micros; then DONT DO THEM!
    I like some micros how do you suggest i find out if i will like them without visiting them ? royal crescent bath is a micro where no other size will do and the crescent is quite a thing to bring you to,menai bridge micro great location and an ingenious hide again a micro with your ignore advice id never of seen those

    Groundspeak make it very easy for us to select our caches to find,
    No they dont how do i work out what the view is or the structure etc from container size and d and t and the description?

    some micro's are very cleverly hidden and more difficult to find than an ammo box in the only tree in the field. Maybe that's why certain cachers don't like them?
    yes they can be well done, however having been to few micros where the area has been trampled and ruined by searching cachers this is more about appropriate placements than micros.

    This series is open to individual interpretation, but essentially, they should highlight a church and it's history to encourage at least a quick look inside/around before hunting the cache. Not many logs reflect that, but some cache pages are very informative and do just what caching should be all about, encourage you to visit an interesting location which you may not have visited otherwise.
    Excellent approach and one i would encourage after all church cache no 1 or church cache no40 is hardly worth reading on a cache page . A good description describing why the cache was placed whats of interest etc goes a long way

    And another point I must make here, Churches are places of worship and remembrance, out of courtesy to some greiving relatives it may be more prudent to have a cache placed a discreet distance away rather than in full view. Kehotee's Macro guidelines of 10m of Church precincts, regular sized and wheelchair accessible will be a challenge to HIDE, rather more easy to find I should think!
    After a few incidents last year these rules were written by groundspeak for all reviewers of caches in churchyards

    Interestingly, there are over 750 Church Micro's already placed, and with over 20,000 find by over 3,000 cachers, it seems not everyone thinks the same way as Kehotee.
    Thank goodness
    Last time i checked number of finds did not indicate the quality of a cache it just shows how many people have found it.

    Ive bolded the key point for me above. Appropriate placement is the key.
    "If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning."

  4. #54
    monkeyhanger Guest

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    Sorry Mark and Lynn,
    Your points are all valid and I agree with everyone of them, my post above was in direct reply to vitriol regarding the Church Micro series, all of which should involve a church, not a suspension bridge etc. The view you are going to should be the church etc. If you are setting out to do a Church Micro series, and hate micro's, you can select a CM that isn't a micro, that was the point I was trying to make. It would be like us complaing about the hill if we did Hill Top Mountain View with a DT of 5/5 ! We should research our pages before attempting a cache.
    It wasn't regarding all micro's per se, as all caches should have their place. Your example of Bath is a perfect one.
    I agree wholeheartedly with your bold words, after all , the whole point of caching is to see interesting things etc. I hope I haven't ruffled too many feathers here, I was trying to be quite specific in my reply, as it was initially the generalisation of "all micro's are chucked in hedges and are bringing the game down" which was something we were trying to redress.
    Last edited by monkeyhanger; 23rd July 2009 at 06:18 PM.

  5. #55

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    Caching as it used to be ?
    In some respects we think things are better .
    In our day trip radius area (West Hampshire ,East Dorset ,South Wiltshire,)we now rarely find a cache wrapped in a smelly wet poly bag .
    And can't recall the last time we find soggy old sweets and other food stuff in a cache. And there are still good multi caches being placed that take more than an hour or two to complete .
    Two examples ,
    " Pips Patch and the Naughty Monkey" at Milford
    and nearby "Henry VIII Castle " at Key Haven/Hurst Castle


    And we don't mind what size the container is as long as it is an appropiate size for where it is hidden ...ah ,that doesn't always happen!
    We like Greens

  6. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by t.a.folk View Post
    Caching as it used to be ?
    In some respects we think things are better .
    In our day trip radius area (West Hampshire ,East Dorset ,South Wiltshire,)we now rarely find a cache wrapped in a smelly wet poly bag .
    And can't recall the last time we find soggy old sweets and other food stuff in a cache. And there are still good multi caches being placed that take more than an hour or two to complete .
    Two examples ,
    " Pips Patch and the Naughty Monkey" at Milford
    and nearby "Henry VIII Castle " at Key Haven/Hurst Castle


    And we don't mind what size the container is as long as it is an appropiate size for where it is hidden ...ah ,that doesn't always happen!
    Very true, but perhaps thats more to do with availability of good, cheap watertight containers than actual cache placement and quality?

  7. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by L8HNB View Post
    Very true, but perhaps thats more to do with availability of good, cheap watertight containers than actual cache placement and quality?
    Perhaps it's to do with the fact that the UK Reviewers work hard to insure caches are not wrapped in plastic bags

    Also ice cream & take away tubs are not used

    Deci
    My post is my personal opinion and as such you do not have my permission to quote me outside of these forums!

    Dave
    Brenin Tegeingl
    Formerly known as Mancunian Pyrocacher on GC

  8. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by keehotee View Post
    There are more good caches on Geocaching.com now than ever before - they just get lost in a sea of dross..
    I've watched and read the whole thread - I think keehotee's comment here really sums it up for me and why most of my new caches are listed on Terracaching.com. I found it too disheartening that many of my caches which have had really great feedback in logs get overlooked in favour of more recent "dross" that has clogged up the place. For example, one of my caches has been found just 8 times in 2 years, receiving comments like "An ingenious concept well-executed that shoots straight into the top five of caches I have discovered" yet a micro placed nearby as part of a series 6 months ago has been found 39 times already with comments like "2 of 37 today. TFTC".

    I have no intention of catering for the pure number seekers, since any cache is just a number to them, as instantly forgettable as the previous one. In contrast, I've derived huge pleasure from finding caches that have not been found for ages - or ever - because of the challenge they have presented. So, instead of following the addage "if you can't beat them, join them", I've opted to differentiate myself unambiguously from them!

    Certainly, the audience at TC.com is probably still under 1% of the audience on GC.com however I am perfectly happy for my caches to be found rarely if they provide a memorable experience to those seeking them. I think time is on my side too

  9. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by sandvika View Post
    I've opted to differentiate myself unambiguously from them!
    I think this sums up the entire thread, Choice.... everyone has their own idea and why they like the game.

    Let me explain...

    I went with both my kids cache along a canal where the caches were 1/3rd of mile, they loved the fact that they could race from one to the other to find them. Will they remember the caches? no, will they remember the day? yes. I hated it..., So did my mum, as it was too far to walk. She likes the fact she can drive and look, then drive to another and look. Which my father dislikes. He would rather go and find one, after hiking 2 miles plus in a nice place. Which my wife wouldnt do, neither would my kids.
    Whilst here in holland, i spent two and a half hours trying to find a smallish cache in the middle of a tarmac carpark. Prize to guess where it was...If the kids were there, they would have been moaning, so would the wife, and both my parents....and probably the dog.

    Everyone has a different way to enjoy this....and everyone is catered for.

    Aesop wrote a fable, called The Man, The Boy and The Donkey, also called you cannot please everyone

  10. #60
    Simply Paul Guest

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    If you hanker for the good ol' days, I recommend doing what I do; go to extremes. The caches I've found on the Western Isles of Harris and Lewis, Skye, then the Isles of Scilly and this year Orkney and Shetland (most of Scotland is good, actually) have all been a bit special and memorable. They've all been in hand-picked locations, rather than fired out of a cache-gun from a moving car, have mostly been a good size (not important to me really, so long as micros are used appropriately) and offered a range of challenges. Every cache was a mini-adventure once- some in the ass-end of the country still are

    SP

  11. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by sandvika View Post

    I found it too disheartening that many of my caches which have had really great feedback in logs get overlooked in favour of more recent "dross" that has clogged up the place. For example, one of my caches has been found just 8 times in 2 years, receiving comments like "An ingenious concept well-executed that shoots straight into the top five of caches I have discovered" yet a micro placed nearby as part of a series 6 months ago has been found 39 times already with comments like "2 of 37 today. TFTC".

    I have no intention of catering for the pure number seekers, since any cache is just a number to them, as instantly forgettable as the previous one. In contrast, I've derived huge pleasure from finding caches that have not been found for ages - or ever - because of the challenge they have presented.
    Don't know why you should be disheartened. Had there not been all the "dross" (in your opinion!) then you'd most likely still have had eight finds in two years.

    People are playing different variations of the game, and all are equally valid. Why compare apples with pears like that? Perhaps that's why you're disheartened. Some of my caches get found two or three times a year, and others get the same per week. That's fine, because I designed them to address different aspects of the game. If you don't like collecting caches for collecting's sake (AKA "numbers"), then it's fine that you don't set caches like that. But why worry about caches that ARE designed to cater for that game, and which give people as much pleasure as your favoured type of cache (because that's all that it is, it isn't superior)?

    The strength of geocaching is that you're free to hunt caches in whatever way you see fit (as long as it doesn't hinder others), and if a certain way doesn't appeal then you don't do it. And no-one complains (or at least, no-one SHOULD complain!).

  12. #62
    nobbynobbs Guest

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    I think the problem is a little more complicated.

    I have done micros that have been well thought out and suitable for their location and haven't just been placed to make up numbers. Equally I've found some larger ones that were there purely because someone could with no redeeming features to make it interesting.
    How, before setting out, can I edit those ones?

    I'm happy to hunt any size if it's an interesting hunt and the size is suitable. Maybe cache owners should be more honest and gc.com should introduce an attribute of "just for the numbers" then iI could filter them.

  13. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobbynobbs View Post
    I think the problem is a little more complicated.

    How, before setting out, can I edit those ones?
    Perhaps looking at the logs might help? If people's logs rave about the cache its likely to be a good'un, if they're cut-and-paste "TFTC" logs, then not so much.

  14. #64

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    Anyone else think there could be erosion issues in the future with some of the "curcuits " that get multiple visits per week ?
    We like Greens

  15. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by von-horst View Post
    Perhaps looking at the logs might help? If people's logs rave about the cache its likely to be a good'un, if they're cut-and-paste "TFTC" logs, then not so much.
    That's what I tend to do. Plus, I use bookmark lists; they're a bit hit-and-miss but can often point to some worthwhile caches. If you favour certain types of cache, then a filter by attribute can help (e.g. good view, short walk).

    None of this is quite as easy as it could be, of course, but then how could you set up a system that caters for such a wide variety of tastes without making it too complicated for use?
    For instance, on the same day I've been known to walk a couple of hours just for one cache, then drive and walk to another that has a tricky puzzle to solve. But then go to a couple of easy roadside ones just for the contrast (or so I feel a sense of achievement after failing to find the more long-winded ones!). Followed by another easy urban one which fits in with a bit of spare time in town.
    It would be annoying if the roadside/urban ones had been eliminated because someone deems that they are there "just for numbers"!

  16. #66
    keehotee Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by monkeyhanger View Post

    "Micro bashing" in general is getting out of hand as some micro's are very cleverly hidden and more difficult to find than an ammo box in the only tree in the field. Maybe that's why certain cachers don't like them?

    This series is open to individual interpretation, but essentially, they should highlight a church and it's history to encourage at least a quick look inside/around before hunting the cache. Not many logs reflect that, but some cache pages are very informative and do just what caching should be all about, encourage you to visit an interesting location which you may not have visited otherwise.

    Interestingly, there are over 750 Church Micro's already placed, and with over 20,000 find by over 3,000 cachers, it seems not everyone thinks the same way as Kehotee.
    Thank goodness
    I'm afraid you missed the point of my post - and Church Macro.
    I was not micro bashing - I agree they have their place - but this is an example of a church micro placed by one of the hiders you highlighted in your post..

    Wheelchair, buggy and cycle friendly and easy access

    This cache is not quite as close to the Church as I would like but once you have visited the area you will understand just why it is where it is.
    contents
    log book, pencil and sharpener all to remain in cache and odd trading items
    There is no mention of the church apart from the title of the cache and the line about the proximity.
    The cache is over 1/10th of a mile from the church in a hedge in the corner of a playing field behind some houses - whereas the church is surrounded on 3 sides by open fields and public footpaths.
    The church is not even visible from the cache location.
    There are no issues with hiding a cache on any of these footpaths - so I have, and when it's listed it'll be a Macro cache.
    Googling the church in question brings up no end of info - even a Wikipedia entry - but none of this (not even a picture) appears on the cache page.
    So why on earth is this listed as a church micro???
    Last edited by keehotee; 27th July 2009 at 01:53 PM.

  17. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by keehotee View Post
    So why on earth is this listed as a church micro???


    Because it brings in the punters, whereas "Bland village random micro no 3768" wouldn't!

  18. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by von-horst View Post

    Because it brings in the punters, whereas "Bland village random micro no 3768" wouldn't!

    Now theres an idea for a series.....

  19. #69
    keehotee Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by von-horst View Post


    Because it brings in the punters, whereas "Bland village random micro no 3768" wouldn't!
    My point exactly.
    I don't have a problem with Church Micros at all - mostly they take you somewhere interesting. But this particular cacher seems to have fallen into the habit of chucking film pots willy nilly ((hahaha) - even if he has placed a few small caches too ), then grouping them with the nearest applicable series definition just to give them a point.

  20. #70
    uktim Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by keehotee View Post
    I'm afraid you missed the point of my post - and Church Macro.
    I was not micro bashing - I agree they have their place - but this is an example of a church micro placed by one of the hiders you highlighted in your post..



    There is no mention of the church apart from the title of the cache and the line about the proximity.
    The cache is over 1/10th of a mile from the church in a hedge in the corner of a playing field behind some houses - whereas the church is surrounded on 3 sides by open fields and public footpaths.
    The church is not even visible from the cache location.
    There are no issues with hiding a cache on any of these footpaths - so I have, and when it's listed it'll be a Macro cache.
    Googling the church in question brings up no end of info - even a Wikipedia entry - but none of this (not even a picture) appears on the cache page.
    So why on earth is this listed as a church micro???
    Maybe he was naive enough to assume that finders could be arsed to walk 1/10th of a a mile to the church and do a bit of research for themselves. We don't have to be spoon-fed all of the time

  21. #71
    nobbynobbs Guest

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    so it would be ok for all caches to be listed without a name or any description, after all it's only a matter of getting off your own **** and finding out about where it is and what the place is about......

  22. #72
    keehotee Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by uktim View Post
    Maybe he was naive enough to assume that finders could be arsed to walk 1/10th of a a mile to the church and do a bit of research for themselves. We don't have to be spoon-fed all of the time
    Then you might as well create a series called Bland village random micro and invite people to find their own church/stand pipe/chocolate-box-cottage/interesting dog-poo bin .......

  23. #73
    uktim Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobbynobbs View Post
    so it would be ok for all caches to be listed without a name or any description, after all it's only a matter of getting off your own **** and finding out about where it is and what the place is about......
    For me that would be fine. I use the waypoint, the container size and maybe the hint in conjunction with a map to sort out which caches we visit. For us it's all about the walk and the exploration, the map is the best tools for this approach

  24. #74
    uktim Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by keehotee View Post
    Then you might as well create a series called Bland village random micro and invite people to find their own church/stand pipe/chocolate-box-cottage/interesting dog-poo bin .......
    That has it's merits, it might teach folks to use maps to plan for themselves and their own eyes and brains along with some simple research to appreciate their surroundings. All we need is a catchy acronym and we could have a great series

  25. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by uktim View Post
    Maybe he was naive enough to assume that finders could be arsed to walk 1/10th of a a mile to the church and do a bit of research for themselves. We don't have to be spoon-fed all of the time
    Going to disagree with you on this one.

    If its called "Church micro XYZ" then the punters can and should expect a certain 'corporate' nature to the cache; It should be either within the boundary of the church (with express permission) or adjacent thereto, and the description should contain a brief synopsis of the church.

    The challenges of hiding a cache (even a micro) near to a church should be what drives a certain degree of creativity so as to give the series 'life'.

    Otherwise, all you get is a misnamed "Bland village random micro no 3768", and the whole series starts to become (whether fiarly or not) a whipping boy' for the anti crappy mico brigade...

    My favorite example of a 'bad' church micro is so far away that it is out of the village and is 'randomly' hidden by the side of a road where you can just see the church on the horizon.

    Even with the zoom, this was the best shot I could get!



    Mike

  26. #76

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    Sadexploration did explain in his email to me (when I asked for 3 numbers) that the 'Church Micro series' caches do not necessarily have to be micros.

    In fact two of mine are but the other is a multi that uses info from gravestones to a small cache down a lane next to the church.
    The micros are just outside the church property.

    In all three cases you can see the churches
    Happy Caching

    Gazooks

    - Setting a good example for children takes all the fun out of middle age.

  27. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by gazooks View Post
    Sadexploration did explain in his email to me (when I asked for 3 numbers) that the 'Church Micro series' caches do not necessarily have to be micros.

    In fact two of mine are but the other is a multi that uses info from gravestones to a small cache down a lane next to the church.
    The micros are just outside the church property.

    In all three cases you can see the churches
    ...which is almost exactly how I set up our recent cache, "Methusalah's rest". It has some details about an interesting feature in the church graveyard to (hopefully) attract cachers' attentions but those who want more facts will either visit the inside of the church or find them on-line.

  28. #78
    uktim Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by von-horst View Post
    Going to disagree with you on this one.

    If its called "Church micro XYZ" then the punters can and should expect a certain 'corporate' nature to the cache; It should be either within the boundary of the church (with express permission) or adjacent thereto, and the description should contain a brief synopsis of the church.

    The challenges of hiding a cache (even a micro) near to a church should be what drives a certain degree of creativity so as to give the series 'life'.

    Otherwise, all you get is a misnamed "Bland village random micro no 3768", and the whole series starts to become (whether fiarly or not) a whipping boy' for the anti crappy mico brigade...

    My favorite example of a 'bad' church micro is so far away that it is out of the village and is 'randomly' hidden by the side of a road where you can just see the church on the horizon.

    Even with the zoom, this was the best shot I could get!



    Mike
    That could be a good photo showing the churches place in the surrounding community, I wonder if without the zoom you would get a better sense of the churches place in the landscape? I can think of churches in our area where you could set a cache at a distance that would give you a wonderful sense of the churches beautiful location on the hill overlooking the village and for me personally this would be every bit as relevant as grovelling around in the churchyard looking for a cache behind the compost heap whilst digesting the info that the cache setter felt that I should be fed.

    It's about imagination and a sense of place, sometimes the cache seeker should use these abilities instead of expecting the cache setter to do it all for them.

    I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, I think that a Church Micro series could and maybe even should include caches in locations that offer distant views of churches in the surrounding countryside. The view that the parishioners would have seen as they crested the hill on the way to church on a sunny morning is a very relevant part of the experience of these historic buildings. Personally that sentiment would be rather spoilt if it was spelt out in the cache page, it's about personal appreciation of your surroundings, maybe studying the map to see where parishioners would have been walking from several hundred years ago and which routes they would have taken. Using a bit of imagination and logic to piece together some of the folk history of the area is a big part of any walk or cache hunt , heaven forbid that too many caches sink to the lowest common denominator of blow by blow tour itineraries with descriptions of set "must see" features. It's about exploration and we really should be doing some of the work ourselves!

  29. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by gazooks View Post

    snip.......

    but the other is a multi that uses info from gravestones to a small cache down a lane next to the church.
    The micros are just outside the church property.

    In all three cases you can see the churches
    I have done that one .... and it is a nice walk (and a nice tucked away church). Much better than a cache and dash

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