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Thread: Challenges ~ A Positive View

  1. #1

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    Surely it is too early to be throwing toys out of prams about the challenges!

    Yes, I can see that people don't like change, and yes I can see that (at first) there may be a lot of silliness around the challenges that people set. But this is something new and it will take time to build. Groundspeak have tried to come back with something for people who bemoaned the loss of virtuals, webcams etc.

    I haven't quite got my head around the physical challenges yet, but the photographic ones have a lot of potential.

    You will be able to set challenges that take people to areas that you want to show them, where you can't place a physical container (surely just like virtuals) and the proof is shown in a photograph.

    Even Earthcaches ask for photographic evidence, how often do we see the line "to claim this cache email a photograph of you holding your GPS at ........location" Photographic challenges can be set in a similar way if you set one in the right place.

    Obviously with an Earthcache you are hoping that the person will learn something about the area you send them to. Can the same not be said for the photographic challenges?

    Webcam caches quite often asked you to do or wear something different to prove that it was actually you, so I don't see much difference there either.

    As I said at the beginning, there will be a lot of silly challenges set at first, people will try to stretch boundaries, but come on, as with anything new, it will take time to settle down and be tweaked. You just have to look at Munzee to see that happening and how it is already developing.

    As with anything in life, isn't it better to suck it and see before making a decision.

    I myself like the old adage. "If you don't like it, don't do it" But please don't write it off just yet.
    Last edited by Jacaru; 19th August 2011 at 05:28 AM. Reason: Added lines

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacaru View Post
    Even Earthcaches ask for photographic evidence, how often do we see the line "to claim this cache email a photograph of you holding your GPS at ........location" Photographic challenges can be set in a similar way if you set one in the right place.

    Obviously with an Earthcache you are hoping that the person will learn something about the area you send them to. Can the same not be said for the photographic challenges?
    I take it that you haven't read the current Earthcache guidelines i.e.

    7. Requests for photographs must be optional. Exceptions to this guideline will only be considered if the requested photograph is related to an Earth Science logging activity such as recording a phenomenon. This particular guidelines was updated on 1 January 2011. All EarthCaches must conform to this guideline as photo requests are considered "additional logging requirements" (ALRs) and follow the guidelines set forth by Geocaching.com.
    Existing EarthCaches that do not meet this guideline must be updated to comply.
    Cache owners may not delete the cacher's log based solely on optional tasks.

  3. #3

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    Ok, so maybe I got that bit wrong, but that wasn't the main gist of what my post is about. It is about the negativity that is flying around about something new before people have given it a chance to work

  4. #4

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    I have to admit to being a bit put off by the new challenges. Mainly because so many 'rubbish' ones started to appear! Yes, there are some good ideas out there, but human nature being what it is we always remember the bad, not the good! So it has cast a negative cloud over challenges.
    One appeared yesterday at a public toilet.... thankfully it's been archived.

    The other change to the site yesterday, the change of date on cache logs and inclusion of the avatar didn't go down too well so that caused people to climb onto the angry step and have a bit of rant. With that mood around challenges were into a bit of a struggle to get going.

    Chris

  5. #5

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    If people try to put the last couple of days behind them and set some decent challenges then there is the hope that it will be received in more positively. This is the way that I am using the photo challenges.

    http://coord.info/CX69D

    As with anything else, if people use photoshop to say they have been somewhere and then logging it, then they are only fooling themselves.

  6. #6
    FuzzyBears Guest

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    C&P from the main forum where someone asked for positives


    No reviewer (sorry guys)
    No more trying to find out who owns what bit of land .. If it has legal public access put a challenge there.
    Peer review if you don't like it it gets a thumbs down if you don't think it is in the spirit of the 'game' flag it and of course the good ones gut lots of thumbs up
    Challenges don't have Rules/ GAGB guidelines only common sense/peer review
    It makes setters think about where they are taking us .. they have to sell it to us, you don't have to accept
    Urban challenges don't have the same 'terrorist' problems... you only need a pic with the flower box, but would you bother to go if was only a flower box.. again self policing... again raising standards
    As above but it would open up all the London parks again... no box no problem
    We had church micros.... now we have CMs where you search in 30 ft of ivy covered walls and can't even see the church Why not church challenges where the church is the reason not the micro
    The chance to take people to a great place without them destroying it to find the nano hidden in the ivy
    People keep saying its the location that matters so why do we need a box and a logbook to prove we've been there just a simple ,sometimes fun, picture and if people claim it so what it's them they are cheating not us
    We all complain about the standard of caches and the fact that if it meets guidelines it has to be published, so now we have the chance to 'review'... if a challenge gets enough thumbs down no one visits it simple.
    On here people are saying its not geocaching.. well let's be honest at the moment geocaching isn't geocaching any more unless you like searching in another hedge for another film pot. Challenges have the potential to take us back to where the location mattered not the box.
    No more soggy logs.. leaking boxes... slug filled carrier bags

    OK GS made a mess of their launch with the kiss a frog but I think it was meant as a fun introduction (remember fun) But it is cachers who are placing the stupid challenges now and if they had read a bit first they would have realised their error instead of trying to be clever and creating locationless challenges.
    Not having a go just using as an example.. Dr Solly's Amersham series is an example of challeges which will stand or fall by cachers thumbs up/thumbs down... if enough people like them then they will become a legend in their own lifetime if not I would hope that they would be archived by the setter.. again peer review

    There is potential there if WE use it and not just dismiss it because it is new.. don't complain about the 'stupid' challenges set good ones that return us to where the location mattered not the box
    Last edited by FuzzyBears; 20th August 2011 at 08:16 AM. Reason: bad speel chucker

  7. #7

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    It would have been nice if they had introduced it as another style of cache, like the old virtuals, then it would have made more sense.
    Last edited by DrDick&Vick; 20th August 2011 at 12:23 PM.

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    I think the idea has great potential, it is now up to users to make them good or bad. Even then it will be a bit like music some good some bad, some to your taste and some will grate but others may love them.

    Done one sent one live.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mongoose39uk View Post
    I think the idea has great potential, it is now up to users to make them good or bad. Even then it will be a bit like music some good some bad, some to your taste and some will grate but others may love them.

    Done one sent one live.
    The main issue here is not whether some people are stupid enough to want to post pictures of themselves picking their nose; human behaviour is inherently mysterious. The fact remains: it has absolutely nothing to do with geocaching.

    Worse still, Groundspeak's determination to silence the outcry that Challenges immediately caused by deleting Feedback threads and Forum posts is an absolute disgrace. They want to take our money, but not listen to our voice? They'll get not a penny more from me.

    In the wake of the Wetherby bomb fiasco there was considerable public discussion along the lines what exactly is the point of the GAGB? Well now the GAGB has a chance to prove it has a point, by telling Groundspeak to dump Challenges and stick to real geocaching. If the GAGB doesn't have the self-respect to stand to up for real geocaching when Groundspeak displays such arrogant commercialism then it has no feasible function and would be as well giving up.

    Judging by the fact that the GAGB Facebook page also censored my post there criticising Challenges, I don't hold out much hope...

  10. #10

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    Like I said it has potential, lots of moaning about the loss of virtual caches a few years ago, they were not real caches either. Lots of people still liked them.

    You can use the challenges like a virtual cache. OK the idea may not have been well presented.

    I have no idea what your post said or who deleted it.

    I like most music though some of it in your opinion may me good or bad, it is still music (possibly with the exception of anything with bagpipes in.

    Waste my time arguing with GS about them a few days after they were introduced because a small number of members have stated they don't like them? Do you really want me to do that?

  11. #11

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    I think challenges have potential. It will take a while to settle down, but choosing the challenges you want/like will be the same as choosing the caches you want/like.

    It seems to me that most of the underlying concerns revolve around cache count numbers - so who cares?I've done x amount but so and so has done 2x amount does that really mean anything.

    I guess splitting the cache total and challenge total is a relatively easy fix which would sort out this " reading between the lines" issue, and negate the problem.

    Things evolve it's the way things are.

    In short get over it - dinosaurs ..........Tongue firmly in cheek before I get slated

    Cheers

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by agentmancuso View Post
    In the wake of the Wetherby bomb fiasco there was considerable public discussion along the lines what exactly is the point of the GAGB? Well now the GAGB has a chance to prove it has a point, by telling Groundspeak to dump Challenges and stick to real geocaching. If the GAGB doesn't have the self-respect to stand to up for real geocaching when Groundspeak displays such arrogant commercialism then it has no feasible function and would be as well giving up.

    Judging by the fact that the GAGB Facebook page also censored my post there criticising Challenges, I don't hold out much hope...
    As a member of the GAGB I don't want them to "tell Groundspeak to dump Challenges".

    There are plenty of cachers who are happy to try out this new idea of Challenges for a few weeks or months.

    I've already issued two Challenges and have a third one (based in Cornwall) ready to be issued soon.

    How arrogant to assume that because a minority of geocachers (and I say minority because we all know that only a minority partcipate in the forums) shout vociferously in their posts that their will should prevail!

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by agentmancuso View Post
    Judging by the fact that the GAGB Facebook page also censored my post there criticising Challenges, I don't hold out much hope...
    Having just looked through the posts on the GAGB facebook group I see this post by you

    "I created a Challenge too, but Groundspeak weren't very keen on that so they archived it, and are deleting all the Feedback threads pointing out that Challenges have absolutely nothing to do with geocaching. So no Premium Membership renewal from me."Thursday at 23:33

    Was there more than this?

    I ask because I have regularly experienced facebook "removing" posts and links I've made for no apparent reason. There were similar accusations levelled at the Mega Wales Committee that they had deleted/censored posts. I'm simply suggesting that what you see as censorship by the GAGB may be no more than a facebook instability issue.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs Blorenge View Post
    ... I'm simply suggesting that what you see as censorship by the GAGB may be no more than a facebook instability issue.
    That's good, thanks.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs Blorenge View Post
    There are plenty of cachers who are happy to try out this new idea of Challenges for a few weeks or months.
    Good for them. I have lots of other interests too, like watching Partick Thistle and reading books. But I don't pretend that they have anything to do with geocaching,so I don't want the number of times I do those things counted on a geoaching site. The same applies to Challenges. They may be worthwile activities in their own right, but they have nothing to do with geocaching. Zero. Zilch. Nada. If people want to take photos of themselves doing stupid things, why not stick to Facebook, that's what it's for.

    How arrogant to assume that because a minority of geocachers (and I say minority because we all know that only a minority partcipate in the forums) shout vociferously in their posts that their will should prevail!
    The assumption was more that people who actually care about caching would be annoyed at having something that was nothing to do with caching plastered all over their hobby. I suppose some people are happy to swallow whatever rubbish is put in front of them.

  16. #16

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    I do think that this particular thread has been hijacked. If you look at the title is was called A Positive View.

    The plain fact is, some people will/do actually like the challenges and are willing to give them a chance. Any further comments against challenges should be directed to the other thread by the originator.
    Ihave done one challenge and set two. I have set them so that they are not stupid, take people to do something and set them in such a way that photoshop won't work as a proof of having completed the challenge. If people use their imagination, and come on, us cachers are known for it, some really great challenges can be set. Oh lordy lord, did I just say something else positive. Well blow me down

  17. #17

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    If completing these challenges counted in Geocaching 'finds' count then I would have been on my bandwagon, but they have their own category and as far as I can see they will not add to the smiley count.
    If I can see nothing in them that will interest me I will simply ignore them.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDick&Vick View Post
    If completing these challenges counted in Geocaching 'finds' count then I would have been on my bandwagon, but they have their own category and as far as I can see they will not add to the smiley count.
    If I can see nothing in them that will interest me I will simply ignore them.
    I understood that the finds counts now equals everything we had before PLUS challenges hence the suggestion now lying in 2nd place in the feedback forum. The way the site is running tonight there is no point in trying to find an example and anyway we're not allowed to be negative in this thread .

  19. #19

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    Just remember guys & gals it is just a game. If you do not like challenges then don't look at them; it is simple as that! Then you would have nothing to moan about.
    Personally we are resurrecting our old virtual caches as photo challenges because ours will take you to something or somewhere of interest where you cannot place a physical cache.
    Happy caching.

    D+C

  20. #20

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    At the moment it's a bit of both...

    At the top of your public profile page it shows a breakdown of your total Caches Found/Trackables logged/Challenge completed but the total shown against your name on cache logs* combines the Caches Found + Challenges Completed.

    Maybe one day Groundspeak will give a complete breakdown of the numbers thus:
    Physical Caches Found/Events Attended/Earthcaches/Challenges/Next new thing/Another new idea/Something else to do/Whatever/etc/etc

    I think it's a good idea to resurrect a deceased Virtual by turning it into a Challenge. I haven't yet seen a Webcam Photographic Challenge created but I expect someone's done it somewhere.

    *Well... I think it will be... when they sort the logs out properly! :wacko:

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wobbly Club View Post
    Just remember guys & gals it is just a game. If you do not like challenges then don't look at them; it is simple as that! Then you would have nothing to moan about.
    Personally we are resurrecting our old virtual caches as photo challenges because ours will take you to something or somewhere of interest where you cannot place a physical cache.
    Happy caching.

    D+C
    If you're going to shout I'm not going to respond, even positively. Goodnight.

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wobbly Club View Post
    Just remember guys & gals it is just a game. If you do not like challenges then don't look at them; it is simple as that! Then you would have nothing to moan about.
    I disagree. It's impossible to ignore Challenges, because they are plastered all over the Groundspeak site. Not only that, but they've been developed and implimented using our money. And they have nothing to do with geocaching. No way around it. I fail to see any advantage in allowing commercialism of this sort to damage caching without protesting. But as I've said already, some people will swallow whatever rubbish is put in front of them (like the corporate Newspeak we've had about the deleted feedback threads for example).

  23. #23

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    I understand the overall positive spirit of this thread. The rest of my post might initially come off as negative but it is really difficult idea that I trying to put across. At lot of this cross posted from my official feedback. Basically good idea with terrible publicity mixed together. The good idea has been lost in translation.

    Or to put it across another way....

    I like the challenges potential. Jeremy Irish has already posted elsewhere on a basic concept to of virtual caches shaped by Tuckman's stages of group development. Basically they where supposed to evolve via the community group voting.

    but....

    I hated the style of announcement introducing challenges because it screwed up the peoples perception of what a challenge is. People are getting silly and making up false arguments. All the problems seem to melt away when looked at open mind.

    The fact that people are asking for them to moved to another site just shows how out of touch people are with the reality of the situation. Does initial move to waymarking.com ring any bells?

    People are complaining about the number of finds being broken. However finds count is separate and challenges are still optional. Challenge counts appear on a mouse over event when on one field and two pre-split on profiles. That is just too confusing for people to understand now because it does not feel intuitive. Challenges are beyond the average geocacher comprehension now because of the confusing initial launch. This brand of caches are now perceived as low value. People with high numbers of finds now value a “senses of importance” over a “sense of achievement” with high counts. People form a brand perception quickly and then stick to that perception. Other web site changes which have nothing to do with challenges are also colouring peoples views. The initial launch has been really bad so far. As they say you don’t get another chance to make a good first impression. A really bad search function coupled with Groundspeak location less challenges has damaged the concept too much for a large group.

    People are still going on about “kiss a frog” as evidence of a bad challenge despite the fact that it does not exist anymore. That type of false negative thinking has become entrenched into the concept of challenges now. Groundspeak started off with a really bad example and had to ban it.

  24. #24

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    I find it really easy to ignore the bits of geocaching.com that I'm not interested in: I manage to never (hardly ever) click on our Statistics tab, rarely look at the Lists tab. Generally I don't read forum topics about Statistics/Numbers/Technical aspects of GPS receivers. There are many sub-forums that I never read.

    I don't really understand why many people who totally and vehemently dislike Challenges "because they're not real geocaches" are happy to have logged events, earthcaches, Virtuals and all the other varieties of "not real geocaches".

    I like to try out new things in the world of Outdoorsy Games - I have caches on Opencaching.org.uk, I've spent time following the forum of Garmin's Opencaching (and decided not to put caches on there), I've also put out some Munzees (not that excited about the Munzee game but will see how it goes), I've logged Trigs, FBM and Waymarks and I'll continue to follow how Challenges develop.

    From my point of view, it's all a game... one big Outdoorsy game...
    a past time... Do the bits that interest you, try what you fancy, ignore things you don't like the look of... Understand that everyone can pick and choose.

    Just because one person likes strawberry creams and you think crunchy frog is far superior it doesn't make you (or them) right.

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by MBFace View Post
    If you're going to shout I'm not going to respond, even positively. Goodnight.
    I was not shouting it was the size of the font I used. Shouting on the net is when one uses CAPITAL letters, just like that.

    Stop moaning and just enjoy the game play it your own way. If you are saying that Geocaching is only about finding boxes; then by your own definition Events have nothing to do with caching because there is not a box to find!

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacaru View Post
    I do think that this particular thread has been hijacked. If you look at the title is was called A Positive View.
    This is a FORUM. In a forum people debate an issue. When you have a debate you have different views. If you don't want to hear alternative views posting on a forum is not a good idea.

    The good thing here is that even though people have been passionately defending their own views the arguments have remained civil. That is to the credit of all GAGB members.

  27. #27

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    The community guidelines for placing caches are getting modified and updated as we go along. Challenges are just something more to throw in the mix. We can do that because it is a great community.
    Quote Originally Posted by agentmancuso View Post
    Not only that, but they've been developed and implimented using our money.
    Did you know that about 99% of the money is blown on keeping the servers running. One reason why there still not enough staff yet to get to other nice projects.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Hornet View Post
    The good thing here is that even though people have been passionately defending their own views the arguments have remained civil. That is to the credit of all GAGB members.
    The funny thing is... it was never supposed to be the end of the matter when all the web changes got made. We where supposed to talk it over and go back and ask them to tweak at few things. The original problem with virtual caches was the "subjective" debate. Nobody could explain what how grade a location clearly. We still need to kick that subject around more. The good news it appears to be working. We are all talking and debating and things on the server are getting tweaked.

    The latest news will be a change to the finds count. It will be split by default. There still some debugging in a few places but Groundspeak are getting there.
    Last edited by Lonewolf; 24th August 2011 at 01:22 PM.

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