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Thread: GAGB Guideline not met, cache denied?

  1. #1

    Join Date
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    Default GAGB Guideline not met, cache denied?

    I'm confused - although it doesn't take much

    I've had a cache denied because:

    Log Date: 9/8/2011
    Hi

    I'm just reviewing your cache which is fine however your cache is placed in an urban area (overlooked by the farmhouse) and due to a major security alert with a cache in a similar location a new guideline has been brought in by the Geocaching Association of Great Britain (GAGB) to cover caches in such locations so as to minimise the chance of more security alerts, particularly where there is a likelihood of finders being considered suspicious for example where a cache is overlooked by houses / offices / shops / people.
    When a cache is placed in an overlooked location, the cache owner should help finders avoid being considered suspicious by offering a clear and unambiguous hint on how to retrieve the cache quickly. Your cache should be clearly labelled as a geocache with the cache GC number if it is large enough for this to be written externally. This will offer the Police a better way to identify a suspect package as a geocache. You may view the GAGB guidelines here http://gagb.co.uk/what-is-geocaching/cache-guidelines/

    I am temporarily disabling your cache so you can confirm it meets this guideline. When you're ready for me to review the cache again either enable it from the cache page (Navigation box on the top right) and add any information or questions in the comments box or if you are editing the cache tick the box 'Yes this listing is active' and add any information in the 'Note to reviewer' box at the bottom. This will bring it back to the top of the queue for review.

    Regards
    Now it's in the middle of the wilderness. There's one farmhouse nearby but besides that there's nothing. It's certainly not an urban area - the nearest village is about 2km's away.

    Wikipedia says the definition of urban is:

    An urban area is characterized by higher population density and vast human features in comparison to areas surrounding it. Urban areas may be cities, towns or conurbations, but the term is not commonly extended to rural settlements such as villages and hamlets.
    Also some people on another forum tell me the GAGB guildelines are.....guildelines, not rules governing the placement of caches.

    Do they *have* to be adhered to? I cannot find anything in the GC.com terms that tell me I must follow them, as it happens I'd read them, but didn't realise they formed part of the rules??

    There is point 3 below

    Inappropriate or Non-publishable Placements

    1.Groundspeak respects the wishes of land owners and land managers.
    2.A geocache may be disabled or archived.
    3.Additional regulations and laws that apply only to your country and region may further restrict geocache placement.
    4.Instructions for geocaches that are on hold, temporarily disabled or archived.
    I guess that means GAGB? What other local organisations must I follow the guildelines of? I assume there are local geocaching clubs to me, forums etc, do they make stipulations also, where do I find a list of ALL my local rules?

  2. #2

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    The guidlines are just that and not rules. I would suggest that you contact the relevant reviewer and explain just that to him/her. It might also be an idea to explain to him/her the location settings and the fact that there are very few buildings there.

  3. #3

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    The guidelines are not rules. If a reviewer chooses to treat them as rules that is down to their conscience.

  4. #4

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    Exclamation

    As stated the cache location is overlooked by the Farmhouse in fact it's right in front of it. And whilst there is not Google Street View for that location, looking at the location on Google Satellite, it looks very close to if not directly opposite a Gateway to the property.

    Groundspeak's UK Reviewers have used the GAGB Guidelines as Local Guidelines since before I became a Reviewer. And as I've been a Reviewer for just over 5 years (and I'm currently the longest serving UK Reviewer) and the people who recruited me, had used the GAGB Guidelines from when they became Reviewers (around 2003) . The GAGB Guidelines have been used as Local Guidelines for around 8 years.

    Also I noticed that you have not mentioned Landowner Permission in your post. Yet you have confirmed in that post that you have read GC's Cache Placement Guidelines.

    You assure us that you have the landowner's and/or land manager's permission before you hide any geocache, whether placed on private or public property.
    Also will you please explain why you felt a need to immediately discuss a unpublished cache in a Public forum, without even giving the Reviewer a chance to even work with you over this cache placement? Because you did not even give the reviewer any chance to discuss this with you, before posting a copy of the Reviewer note here.

    One of the roles of GC's Reviewers is to work with Cache Owners to get their cache submissions published. To do that, they have to be given the chance to work with the cache owner.

    Deceangi Volunteer UK Reviewer Geocaching.com
    My post is my personal opinion and as such you do not have my permission to quote me outside of these forums!

    Dave
    Brenin Tegeingl
    Formerly known as Mancunian Pyrocacher on GC

  5. #5

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    errr I came here for some help? And I'm now more confused, I've got some people saying they're only guidelines yet you're saying the reviewers use them as rule.

    I just want some clarification of this that's all.

  6. #6

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    I have to say even as a committee member of the GAGB ia m confused. We list guidelines and yet it seems they are being treated as rules?

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sven View Post
    errr I came here for some help? And I'm now more confused, I've got some people saying they're only guidelines yet you're saying the reviewers use them as rule.

    I just want some clarification of this that's all.

    These are guidelines, rather than hard and fast rules, which gives the reviewers some room for movement when applying them, if they wish and they think it's appropriate. While your proposed cache isn't in an 'urban' environment it seems to be clearly overlooked by a property, and in fact a cacher hanging round outside a house in the middle of nowhere could potentially attract a lot more suspicion than a cacher hanging around in the middle of a city centre.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mancunian View Post
    Also will you please explain why you felt a need to immediately discuss a unpublished cache in a Public forum, without even giving the Reviewer a chance to even work with you over this cache placement?
    Personally I don't think the OP has done anything wrong. [S]He's been told the cache contravenes the GAGB guidelines and has then come to the GAGB for advice, I don't see a problem with them clarifying the situation before approaching the reviewer to query the rejection.

  8. #8

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    Thanks for the feedback, I live half the year in the UK and half in Florida. How do I know about any local Florida rules (or guidelines?!) that I must follow whilst I'm there? We've not cached in Florida yet, we're still relative newbies!

    Is there a list of all the areas of the world, and all the local clubs that make extra local rules?

    Also would there be any more local rules that must be adhered to? For instance county or city wide besides the GAGB?

    Thanks guys
    Last edited by Sven; 10th September 2011 at 09:45 PM.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sven View Post
    Also would there be any more local rules that must be adhered to? For instance county or city wide besides the GAGB?
    It can be a bit confusing, on the whole the additional guidelines for the UK are basically enshrined in the GAGB guidelines, but there are other rules set by landowners such as the Forestry Commission, and Woodland Trust where additional rules are in place but you'd find out about those when applying to the landowner for permission (many of these can also be found under the individual land owner agreements at http://www.gagb.co.uk/gagb/glad/index.php )

    There are also local rules in the US, such as not placing caches near railway lines, but I wouldn't know where to go to find them.

  10. #10

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    Someone on another forum recons I've ended up on the "reviewers blacklist" whatever that is?

    My cache rough location is here which as I said isn't "urban" at all. I'm not sure how the reviewer can say because of the recent Wetherby incident they're requiring all caches have a "clear and unambiguous clue" yet the same reviewer published this cache yesterday and there is no clear clue at all, and that's in the middle of an urban street!?


  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sven View Post
    Someone on another forum recons I've ended up on the "reviewers blacklist" whatever that is?

    My cache rough location is here which as I said isn't "urban" at all. I'm not sure how the reviewer can say because of the recent Wetherby incident they're requiring all caches have a "clear and unambiguous clue" yet the same reviewer published this cache yesterday and there is no clear clue at all, and that's in the middle of an urban street!?

    Have you asked the reviewer?

    Personally I can't see anything wrong with the cache. There's something that matches the clue clearly visible on Google Street View extremely close to the coordinates.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mancunian View Post

    Groundspeak's UK Reviewers have used the GAGB Guidelines as Local Guidelines since before I became a Reviewer. And as I've been a Reviewer for just over 5 years (and I'm currently the longest serving UK Reviewer) and the people who recruited me, had used the GAGB Guidelines from when they became Reviewers (around 2003) . The GAGB Guidelines have been used as Local Guidelines for around 8 years.


    Deceangi Volunteer UK Reviewer Geocaching.com


    Nor strictly true Dave, if you remember one of my big arguments with Michael LaPaglia (which contributed largely to my resignation) was his insistance that there were no such things as UK specific guidelines and GSP guidlelines and only GSP guidelines had to be followed. This was during a protracted and sometimes quite heated discussion about DSW caches.

    One of the things that has been a pleasant and refreshing surprise (but only in some ways) in recent months has been the seeming acceptance of GSP that the UK reviewers can now create their own rules (as they are not and never have been really simply guidelines have they ?)

    Not intending any criticism here but wanting to set the record straight.

    Cheers,:cheers:

    DaveD

  13. #13

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    I just wanted to clarify that GAGB has guidelines and it's up to the Reviewers of listing sites on how these should be applied to individual caches.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sven View Post
    Someone on another forum recons I've ended up on the "reviewers blacklist" whatever that is?
    I'd be interested in hearing His explanation about a "reviewers blacklist", caches are Reviewed according to the Guidelines the GC ones, and the GAGB ones which we use as Local Guidelines.

    Any time we mistreat a member in any way, that person is welcome to make a Official Complaint to Groundspeak. Who will fairly investigate the complaint and take any appropriate action they deem appropriate. From a Warning to the Final and Ultimate Sanction of Removal as a Groundspeak Volunteer.

    If anyone wishes to doubt the above statement, someone** made a Official Complaint against me*, to Groundspeak. After they had investigated, I received a "Official Warning" off Groundspeak. So Groundspeak's Reviewers are held to a high standard at all times.

    Maybe the Admins of the Other Listing Sites, would care to explain how their held accountable.


    Deci

    *within the last 12 months
    **The persons Identity remains confidential between that person and Groundspeak.
    My post is my personal opinion and as such you do not have my permission to quote me outside of these forums!

    Dave
    Brenin Tegeingl
    Formerly known as Mancunian Pyrocacher on GC

  15. #15

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    I think what was meant by the 'blacklist' comment is just an observation that some cachers do have their caches published right away with little or no quibble whilst others have problems thrown at them wherever possible.

    I know that some people have not had caches published for weeks, whilst other have been placed and published within that week! It can be very irritating for those involved.

    I am sure there is no official blacklist, but certainly reviewers still are real people and therefore have human opinions and may let them clout their judgement form time to time. We all do it! I think that is all the comment meant.
    Adam Robbins (Bobbinz)

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