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Thread: When is a cache not a cache?

  1. #1

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    Default When is a cache not a cache?

    I have been thinking about placing a multi cache and would like to ask a question about the stages. Can the stage clue to the next stage or final cache be written on something which you have left at the stage? Could you, for example, write the coords of the next stage on a wall? I don't want to give away too much in case some of my potential searchers are reading this message and it would not be a crude as that but the principle would be the same. Can anyone give any exmples of this?

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  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by drifter View Post
    I have been thinking about placing a multi cache and would like to ask a question about the stages. Can the stage clue to the next stage or final cache be written on something which you have left at the stage? Could you, for example, write the coords of the next stage on a wall? I don't want to give away too much in case some of my potential searchers are reading this message and it would not be a crude as that but the principle would be the same. Can anyone give any exmples of this?
    Please... No... Don't go defacing any walls in any way to provide co-ordinates.
    You can use any sort of notice that's already on the wall, or nearby... or could the number of bricks in it, or the number of lamp posts next to it... or whatever.
    I've read of co-ords written onto a plastic name tag (like the ones they use in hospitals) attached loosely to a small branch.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs Blorenge View Post
    Please... No... Don't go defacing any walls in any way to provide co-ordinates.
    You can use any sort of notice that's already on the wall, or nearby... or could the number of bricks in it, or the number of lamp posts next to it... or whatever.
    I've read of co-ords written onto a plastic name tag (like the ones they use in hospitals) attached loosely to a small branch.
    Yes, the writing on the wall was perhaps not a very good example but do I understand that you think leaving a name tag (or similar item) is OK? Perhaps a better example would be the coords written on an extra shell on a beach or the number of sand grains in a hole? The plastic name tag would be a bit foreign in a natural environment. Would you have to ask permission to place an extra shell on a beach? Do you have to ask permission to count the number of bricks in a wall? Rember that this is not the cache but a waypoint.

  5. #5

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    You asked for advice and that is what has been given, why be sarcastic.
    Mrs B was simply giving advice.
    There are tags being left all around these days, they are called Munzees.

  6. #6
    Ve8 Guest

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    Assuming that you own the wall or have explicit permission to do so I can't see it being an issue although I note this is just theoretical.

  7. #7

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    I have seen multi cache stage co ords written on bricks, old tiles, knotted into string, on a carved plaque in plain sight on a noticeboard , in a 35mm film can, in a bison tube, on a log, engraved on a bolt you needed a magnifying glass to see and many many other objects.
    "If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning."

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDick&Vick View Post
    You asked for advice and that is what has been given, why be sarcastic.
    Mrs B was simply giving advice.
    There are tags being left all around these days, they are called Munzees.
    Sorry I did not mean to be sarcastic and apologize to Mrs B however her answer just seemed to raise further questions.
    I have not really looked into Munzees but would have thought that they were more of a cache than a waypoint. To me, a piece of plastic on a tree is litter, but for some reason a brass plaque nailed to a tree does not convey the same feeling. I have noticed that small name plates and numbers on trees are not uncommon. I would however expect to ask permission to nail something to a tree but I would not expect to ask permission to write on a shell on a beach. (I wonder if the Queen would answer such a request!)
    With regard to the wall senario and as Ve8 has suggested I would have thought that, again, if permission was obtained, this would be OK. I could see, for example, the clue being hidden in the signature of a wall mural.
    I must say that none of these things are what I would like to do but raises interesting possibilities.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by markandlynn View Post
    I have seen multi cache stage co ords written on bricks, old tiles, knotted into string, on a carved plaque in plain sight on a noticeboard , in a 35mm film can, in a bison tube, on a log, engraved on a bolt you needed a magnifying glass to see and many many other objects.
    Thanks Markandlynn, That is exactly the information I was looking for. In all the multi caches I have done up till now the information required for the stages of the multi cache has already existed at the waypoints on public signs, grave stones etc. I have not done any where the information has been deliberately placed by the cacher. Hence the title of this question, "When is a cache not a cache?" The answer would appear to be, "When it is a waypoint!"

  10. #10

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    It's OK, I haven't taken off fences...

    (The comments below refer to listing caches on Geocaching.com. Other listing sites will have different opinions)

    Somewhere around there used to be a multi or puzzle cache where you ended up in some woodland... Nothing obviously with cache co-ordinates... Until you examined the "Lost Dog" notice attached to a tree... "If found phone Jeremy Frog on (co-ords in format of two phone numbers)".

    In my reply above I was trying to avoid the idea that graffiti-ing cache co-ords onto walls would be acceptable. It's a bit like the old question of digging holes to hide a cache - "If I get permission to do it, surely it's OK?"

    Well. Hmmm.

    The problem is that even if you have permission, other cachers come along and see your example and then it can be a case of "monkey see, monkey do".

    We used to have a multi cache where one set of co-ords was chiselled (with much sweat from the brow of MrB) into a large rounded pebble, placed with some not-rounded pebbles on the edge of the Severn.

    With all such placements it's worth considering, "If necessary, can I remove this object from its location and leave no trace?"

  11. #11

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    On the "shell on a beach" question...strictly speaking you will need permission to place an extra shell on a beach.
    If the beach is a SSSI or nature reserve you'll need to prove that the shell was placed there with the permission of the relevant authorities. You might need to set up a site meeting and point out the exact position of the shell and then wait until further reports have been made and an affirmative answer received from all interested parties. The fact that the container blends in rather well and is made of natural materials is not relevant as far as Groundspeak approval is concerned.

    Ridiculous it may seem in many cases, but they's the rules.

    If a cache reviewer sees that a multicache physical stage is in an SSSI, then proof of permission will have to be shown. If the beach is simply an average (normally privately owned) beach then you'll probably get away with it as long as you don't mention the lack of permission.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Humphrey View Post
    On the "shell on a beach" question...strictly speaking you will need permission to place an extra shell on a beach.
    If the beach is a SSSI or nature reserve you'll need to prove that the shell was placed there with the permission of the relevant authorities. You might need to set up a site meeting and point out the exact position of the shell and then wait until further reports have been made and an affirmative answer received from all interested parties. The fact that the container blends in rather well and is made of natural materials is not relevant as far as Groundspeak approval is concerned.

    Ridiculous it may seem in many cases, but they's the rules.

    If a cache reviewer sees that a multicache physical stage is in an SSSI, then proof of permission will have to be shown. If the beach is simply an average (normally privately owned) beach then you'll probably get away with it as long as you don't mention the lack of permission.
    Sorry but we all know how negative you are to GC Reviewers, for requiring Proof of Landowner Permission for Caches placed on SSSI's.

    But your not the one who has Prevented a Cache Owner and Searcher for a cache if it had been Published from up to a 20,000 fine or a Maximum of 5 years in Prison for Disturbing a Roost of Bats. The container being up a Tree in which they Roosted. Which happened to be in a Public Park. It was only caught due to the Park being a SSSI! That Public Park being in a Major English City! The Park Authorities had no objections to Geocaching, provided those taking part were not disturbing the wildlife.

    So because I was being ridiculous, I stopped a major issue.

    So sorry if I and my colleagues, will not apologise for having such a policy. Because we, just like you and probably 99.9% of the UK Geocaching Community are not qualified or experienced to make a judgement call on such locations.

    Oh and what about Snowdon? Thats a SSSI, CCW (who are the Landowners on behalf of the Welsh Assembly) have refused just one cache on there, due to a rare and Protected Plant (by rare, it grows in one location in Wales) being located at the cache location.

    Another case of my being ridiculous?

    If I'd followed your line of thinking, because the cache location was a Mountain, and cachers would not cause any harm. I should have Published that cache, without requiring Landowner Permission.

    We don't know what part of a Designated area is at risk or extra special. So leave the decision to those that do. The Landowner or Designating Authority.

    Oh and your example about site inspections, cover possibly 1-2% of such requests. I'm personally aware that many Landowners and the Designating Authorities in many cases, have given permission after a Email or Telephone conversation.

    Deci

    ps: I own a Multi in Sand Dunes, that is a SSSI. Because my request was the very First one CCW had ever had to action, at the request of the Landowner, and the SSSI Steering Group (comprising the Landowner BHPBiliton, the Land Manager whose a contractor, RSPB, CCW, Flintshire and Denbighshire CC's Haven Holidays, The Department of the Environment. Point of Ayre Holiday Park.) way back in 2003/4 there was a Site Inspection. Since then they have been highly supportive of Geocaching. Because I did the hard work, many cache owners in Wales have benefited. Others have done similar for cachers in England and Scotland.
    My post is my personal opinion and as such you do not have my permission to quote me outside of these forums!

    Dave
    Brenin Tegeingl
    Formerly known as Mancunian Pyrocacher on GC

  13. #13

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    Deci on forum patrol as ever i see do you ever take time off Dave ???
    "If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning."

  14. #14

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    I fully appreciate the need for permission in nature reserves and many SSSI. One of my recent caches is in a SSSI and nature reserve and I wouldn't have dreamed of placing it without getting permission from all the interested parties.

    Unfortunately in many cases ("many cases", not all, I said above) this will seem ridiculous. Blanket rules like this will always throw up anomalies, and because of the limitations of the reviewing system, the reviewer can only use the same rule for every cache and has no idea about the local circumstances. So indeed, a shell on a beach will be subject to the same conditions of acceptance as if it was an ammo box in a meadow of rare orchids. Which would seem ridiculous to most, even if it is the only way we can handle it.

    So my point was simply to mention that drifter's example of a shell on a beach;
    I would however expect to ask permission to nail something to a tree but I would not expect to ask permission to write on a shell on a beach.
    ...is incorrect; because despite it seeming against common sense, there are places where even a shell on a beach would require full proof of permission. As soon as it has something written on it it's a "cache" and subject to all the placement rules. If it's above the high water mark it's on privately-owned land.

    So I'm not being negative at all. It's best to accept that it's an unsatisfactory system, however, and work to improve it.
    Last edited by Happy Humphrey; 19th November 2011 at 08:51 AM.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mancunian View Post
    Oh and your example about site inspections, cover possibly 1-2% of such requests.
    So I was correct to point out that a cache placement might need a site inspection. As well as being correct to highlight that even a shell on a beach might need permission.

    Sorry Deci, but I think you skimmed through my post and then replied to what you thought I posted, not what I actually wrote. But if you're having to trawl through all the local forums all day then no doubt you can't read everything as carefully as you would like.

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