Discusion about cleaning up Abandoned Archived Caches

[Brenin Tegeingl]

A discussion has been taking place on Groundspeak's UK Forum, in regards to completely abandoned and Archived caches, being uplifted.

https://forums.groundspeak.com/GC/in...owtopic=310267

where I made a suggestion as a Member and Not as a Volunteer Groundspeak Reviewer

As a Member so not "Officially" representing Groundspeak, but simply voicing my own personal opinion, I am free to express a opinion.

And that is I would like to see a system put in place, where 6 months after a cache has been Archived [or whatever name is used] from "All" Listing Sites. A volunteer goes out to check that the container has been uplifted. To this aim, a Points system is set up, 1 point for physically going to check, where a Owner has not confirmed that the container has been uplifted. 3 points for actually uplifting a abandoned container.

At the end of each 12 month period, individuals scores are tallied, and the person with the highest amount of points per Region and for the UK as a whole is awarded a Badge for their profile. And possibly funded by donations, a Trackable, or other Geocaching related prize.

This is a Project that would be suitable for the GAGB to run, with Volunteers co-opted by the Committee, to run the project on their behalf. If the GAGB was to take this one, I'd personally be happy to make donations to fund prizes such as Trackables.

The OP of that topic posted

That scheme, assuming that we couldn't get enough people to volunteer just out of the goodness of their heart, would be great I'm certainly happy to be the volunteer for the new forest. I'm not associated with the GAGB at the moment so would be grateful if you'd suggest it to them.

As such I am happy to comply with that request.

Dave
Mancunian Pyrocacher Member Account

Please feel to quote this post, but please make it clear if you do, that it has been made SOLELY under my Member Account, and is solely my own personal and private opinion.

[lost it]

just playing devils advocate

who gives us the right to remove another persons property, who knows we could end up being reported to the police for theft

[northking]

I think that this is a great idea. There are however hurdles to overcome having regard to theft/appropriation of property;

I believe that as long as the 'finder' or 'uplifter' is of the state of mind that the item had been abandoned by the owner and that taking steps to return the item to the owner (or believes that those steps) would have failed means that there is no 'theft' this appears to be covered under 'dishonest appropriation'

There is no dishonest appropriation - 'if he appropriates the property in the belief that he would have the other’s consent if the other knew of the appropriation and the circumstances of it; or

(except where the property came to him as trustee or personal representative) if he appropriates the property in the belief that the person to whom the property belongs cannot be discovered by taking reasonable steps.'


Maybe there ought to be an 'opt in' box for UK Geocaches stating that if the geocache is archived for the agreed period and appears abandoned then I agree to the container being removed by a third party.

(I am already seeing that this would be a difficult - but responsible - area to get into)

[border caz]

I have removed a few archived caches from the field on occasion, having checked they were not listed on terracaching or opencaching. I have always e-mailed the cache owner through their GC.com account to tell them I have their caches and to let me know if they would like them back or if it would be OK to put them back into circulation.

If I hear nothing in 3 months I re-use the cache containers. A couple were ammo boxes and the CO replied to me, agreeing to them being re-used so they went as raffle prizes at an event.

[N0hope]

I think this is a great idea and would be happy to volunteer in the area I live in.
If you contact the owner as border caz has done with a foot not to say if there is no reply within a set time limit you will re-use the cache this would prevent any theft allegations as you have made reasonable steps to return the item and you are not intending to permanently deprive the owner of their property. Another way round this is for the person recovering the cache to report the "found" property to their local police station. They would then have an official report number and if the cache is not claimed after 3 months it can be legally claimed by the finder. There is no need to leave the cache at the police station, you can keep it at home as long as you do not dispose of it.
I could see that to add the clause mentioned by northking into the GAGB guidelines is the most sensible way to go with this. As then anyone placing a cache will have agreed to having an abandoned cache recovered. The next step would then be for GAGB to ask Groundspeak to add it to their rules.

[northking]

In my opinion, I don't think that this is a groundspeak matter, and they are so concerned about litigation that the mere mention of 'theft' or 'misappropriation' would bring the whole idea grinding to a permanent halt.

[Brenin Tegeingl]

In my opinion, I don't think that this is a groundspeak matter, and they are so concerned about litigation that the mere mention of 'theft' or 'misappropriation' would bring the whole idea grinding to a permanent halt.

This is a project Groundspeak will not get involved in, as the part of my OP, from a Reviewers point of view, made clear.

However from a Members point of view [so my personal and private opinion]

If a Template log was made after cache is Archived, along the lines of

This Cache has been noted by the Archive cache Uplift Project*, that this cache has been Archived. If within the next 6 months of the date of the Archive log, the Owner has not confirmed that the Container has been uplifted. A Project Member, will will visit the cache location, and remove the Abandoned container.

And after a visit and uplift

A member of the Archived Cache Uplift Uplift Project*, to day uplifted the abandoned container. The member will hold on to the container for a reasonable period to allow the Placer to reclaim their property, after which it will be appropriately disposed of.

*or whatever name is given to the project, if it ever gets up and running.

The 2 logs give the cache owner notice to uplift their container, and retrieve it if uplifted. It would also add another tool to for the GAGB with Landowners worried that geocaches will be abandoned on their property.

Dave
Mancunian Pyrocacher Member Account

Please feel to quote this post, but please make it clear if you do, that it has been made SOLELY under my Member Account, and is solely my own personal and private opinion.

[Purple+WKD]

I think this is a good idea as I have wondered how many caches are out there that have been abandoned.
Who knows how many cache placers have ceased playing the game, for whatever the reason and not collected their caches?
I think the key is to determine when a cache is abandoned, I would be more than happy to volunteer to remove abandoned caches, but only when every possible step has been taken to verify that the cache is truly abandoned.
Having caches out there that are possibly in bad condition for non-cachers to stumble across could possibly give geocaching a bad name :-( after all we are supposed to leave no trace and clean up the cache area as we play the game.

Happy caching

WKD

[Poole_Man]

We should not touch caches belonging to others as there is a chance that they have withdrawn the cache from listing at geocaching.com but still list it elsewhere.

Groundspeak has no authority legally to remove a physical cache or to encourage others to do so, their authority goes as far as listing or not of a cache on the websites under their control.

I support the principles under which Groundspeak works but until it has a legal standing on which to instruct removal of caches I would politely say back off Groundspeak.

We have enough issues about caches being stolen this could develop the same way if abused.

Lets give this a 100% miss.

Paul

[DizzyPair]

If you take a look at post #7, you'll see that this is nothing to do with Groundspeak.

[Muddy_Puddles]

Sounds like a good idea to me and would reduce littering by removing old caches.

Gotta say though, most archived caches around here seem to have been archived after they've already gone missing... along with the CO in many cases

[Simply Paul]

I like the idea, but I see it as a can o' worms. If I post the co-ords for my caches on my own website, or Twitter, and archive it on GC.com, that cache is still there to be found. Just because it's not listed on another caching site, it doesn't follow that it's unloved. I don't like geolitter, but it is a difficult one to police.