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Thread: Hijacking of 3rd Party agreements

  1. #1
    moote01 Guest

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    Answer this either Yes or No

    Should Geocachers be able to just use another organisations negotiated access agreement, without any prior consultation with that organisation?

    It might be helpful to clarify your answer to give better understanding and reasoning.

  2. #2

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    Sorry to be thick Milton, but I don't understand the question. If you would kindly give an example I might be able to clarify with an answer.
    Enjoy your caching!

  3. #3
    nobbynobbs Guest

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    well if the agreement with the landowner is used as a basis for that landowner to agree to cachers to also have access. then what is the problem?

    if cachers are going onto land without the owners permission regardless if permission for other groups exist then they should not.

    so if i read you post correctly , yes cachers should be allowed to use a different organisation's existing agreement as a basis for the agreement of the landowner, without any approach to the other organisation.

    it would be polite and curteous but not needed.

  4. #4
    moote01 Guest

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    You need to find out all terms and conditions that have benn applied to that agreement.

    Just to accept that you have the same rights could cause issues of a legal nature; after all geocaching is about placing something on that land, many other hobbies leave less of a trace.

    Also, the legal aspect is, that the right can't be inherited, it has to be gained from the landowner.

  5. #5
    nobbynobbs Guest

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    sorry you don't appear to have read what i said.

    read it again and see your error.

  6. #6
    moote01 Guest

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    sorry miss read as only on 7" screen due to main PC suffering from heat stroke

  7. #7

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    sorry wrong thread

  8. #8
    The Hokesters Guest

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    I agree 90% with Master Nobbs. Another organisation may be cited as evidence in seeking permission by cachers without the other organisations consent.

    I don't agree that it would be courtesy to contact that organisation for permission to cite their permission. Common politics IMHO.

  9. #9
    moote01 Guest

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    Originally posted by The Hokesters@Jun 11 2006, 11:35 PM
    I agree 90% with Master Nobbs. Another organisation may be cited as evidence in seeking permission by cachers without the other organisations consent.

    I don't agree that it would be courtesy to contact that organisation for permission to cite their permission. Common politics IMHO.
    So what have Caching and Caving, (other than access agreements) got in common?

    You may feel that Common politics come into play, but under English Contract Law an agreement is only between the parties involved, any other party has to form its own contract. Therefor Geocaching can't force itself onto another parties agreement without the consent of the other parties, or forming its own agreement.

  10. #10

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    Originally posted by moote01@Jun 11 2006, 08:43 PM
    Should Geocachers be able to just use another organisations negotiated access agreement, without any prior consultation with that organisation?
    To answer this you need to define "use".

    Do you mean it was used as the basis of an agreement that Geocachers obtained, or do you mean that Geocachers did not seek permission because the believed the caving agreement covered them.

  11. #11
    The Hokesters Guest

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    Originally posted by moote01+Jun 12 2006, 12:59 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (moote01 @ Jun 12 2006, 12:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-The Hokesters@Jun 11 2006, 11:35 PM
    I agree 90% with Master Nobbs. Another organisation may be cited as evidence in seeking permission by cachers without the other organisations consent.

    I don&#39;t agree that it would be courtesy to contact that organisation for permission to cite their permission. Common politics IMHO.
    So what have Caching and Caving, (other than access agreements) got in common?

    You may feel that Common politics come into play, but under English Contract Law an agreement is only between the parties involved, any other party has to form its own contract. Therefor Geocaching can&#39;t force itself onto another parties agreement without the consent of the other parties, or forming its own agreement. [/b][/quote]
    I am only making the point that any one organisation may cite another&#39;s agreement, in their proposal to obtain permission with or without their blessing.

    Please read my post again before offering any explanation for your disagreement.

  12. #12
    Chris n Maria Guest

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    Originally posted by moote01@Jun 11 2006, 11:59 PM
    You may feel that Common politics come into play, but under English Contract Law an agreement is only between the parties involved, any other party has to form its own contract. Therefor Geocaching can&#39;t force itself onto another parties agreement without the consent of the other parties, or forming its own agreement.
    Surly the agrement would not just cover the 2 parties involved? Would every caver have to be a memeber of the organisation that negotiated the agreement? or would the agreement be for all cavers regardless of organisation?

    I have done a fair bit of caving and never joined any caving groups...was I breaking the agreement then?

    So if I am right in thinking it applies to all cavers
    I wonder how you define cavers?
    and I wonder again if your question really becomes "when does a caver become a cacher?"

  13. #13
    moote01 Guest

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    Originally posted by The Royles+Jun 12 2006, 12:41 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (The Royles @ Jun 12 2006, 12:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-moote01@Jun 11 2006, 08:43 PM
    Should Geocachers be able to just use another organisations negotiated access agreement, without any prior consultation with that organisation?
    To answer this you need to define "use".

    Do you mean it was used as the basis of an agreement that Geocachers obtained, or do you mean that Geocachers did not seek permission because the believed the caving agreement covered them. [/b][/quote]
    Use without agreement, to see that a 3rd Party has made an agreement and then to assume it covers Geocaching.

  14. #14
    moote01 Guest

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    Originally posted by Chris n Maria+Jun 12 2006, 08:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Chris n Maria @ Jun 12 2006, 08:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-moote01@Jun 11 2006, 11:59 PM
    You may feel that Common politics come into play, but under English Contract Law an agreement is only between the parties involved, any other party has to form its own contract. Therefor Geocaching can&#39;t force itself onto another parties agreement without the consent of the other parties, or forming its own agreement.
    Surly the agrement would not just cover the 2 parties involved? Would every caver have to be a memeber of the organisation that negotiated the agreement? or would the agreement be for all cavers regardless of organisation?

    I have done a fair bit of caving and never joined any caving groups...was I breaking the agreement then?

    So if I am right in thinking it applies to all cavers
    I wonder how you define cavers?
    and I wonder again if your question really becomes "when does a caver become a cacher?" [/b][/quote]
    Here is a fact, I help manage and maintain the Ease Gill SSSI both above and below ground, Walkers have free access to the above ground section of the SSSI, but to enter underground you require 2 things.

    1. A valid access permit.
    2. A valid BCA insurance card or equivalent.

    This is now more the norm in caving, not many Cachers could easily get these as you would need to be in a recognised club, and been through a probationary period to gain full membership.

    Permission to enter the system is not given without this criteria being met, this is managed by the CNCC, who look after matters in Northern England.

  15. #15
    moote01 Guest

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    Originally posted by The Hokesters+Jun 12 2006, 01:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (The Hokesters @ Jun 12 2006, 01:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
    Originally posted by moote01@Jun 12 2006, 12:59 AM
    <!--QuoteBegin-The Hokesters
    @Jun 11 2006, 11:35 PM
    I agree 90% with Master Nobbs. Another organisation may be cited as evidence in seeking permission by cachers without the other organisations consent.

    I don&#39;t agree that it would be courtesy to contact that organisation for permission to cite their permission. Common politics IMHO.

    So what have Caching and Caving, (other than access agreements) got in common?

    You may feel that Common politics come into play, but under English Contract Law an agreement is only between the parties involved, any other party has to form its own contract. Therefor Geocaching can&#39;t force itself onto another parties agreement without the consent of the other parties, or forming its own agreement.
    I am only making the point that any one organisation may cite another&#39;s agreement, in their proposal to obtain permission with or without their blessing.

    Please read my post again before offering any explanation for your disagreement. [/b][/quote]
    I read and understand, yes any Organisation can enter into negotiation, but what you can&#39;t do is take that agreement and use it as your own, it is a contract between the parties involved and as such you require to negotiate your inclusion or your agreement. Remember all contracts and 2 way and are governed by what is know as Contractual Golden rule; which means all signatories have a say in the state of a contract. But if you ain&#39;t a signatory, then you have no say within that contract.

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