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Thread: Hijacking of 3rd Party agreements

  1. #1
    moote01 Guest

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    Answer this either Yes or No

    Should Geocachers be able to just use another organisations negotiated access agreement, without any prior consultation with that organisation?

    It might be helpful to clarify your answer to give better understanding and reasoning.

  2. #2

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    Sorry to be thick Milton, but I don't understand the question. If you would kindly give an example I might be able to clarify with an answer.
    Enjoy your caching!

  3. #3
    nobbynobbs Guest

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    well if the agreement with the landowner is used as a basis for that landowner to agree to cachers to also have access. then what is the problem?

    if cachers are going onto land without the owners permission regardless if permission for other groups exist then they should not.

    so if i read you post correctly , yes cachers should be allowed to use a different organisation's existing agreement as a basis for the agreement of the landowner, without any approach to the other organisation.

    it would be polite and curteous but not needed.

  4. #4
    moote01 Guest

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    You need to find out all terms and conditions that have benn applied to that agreement.

    Just to accept that you have the same rights could cause issues of a legal nature; after all geocaching is about placing something on that land, many other hobbies leave less of a trace.

    Also, the legal aspect is, that the right can't be inherited, it has to be gained from the landowner.

  5. #5
    nobbynobbs Guest

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    sorry you don't appear to have read what i said.

    read it again and see your error.

  6. #6
    moote01 Guest

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    sorry miss read as only on 7" screen due to main PC suffering from heat stroke

  7. #7

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    sorry wrong thread

  8. #8
    The Hokesters Guest

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    I agree 90% with Master Nobbs. Another organisation may be cited as evidence in seeking permission by cachers without the other organisations consent.

    I don't agree that it would be courtesy to contact that organisation for permission to cite their permission. Common politics IMHO.

  9. #9
    moote01 Guest

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    Originally posted by The Hokesters@Jun 11 2006, 11:35 PM
    I agree 90% with Master Nobbs. Another organisation may be cited as evidence in seeking permission by cachers without the other organisations consent.

    I don't agree that it would be courtesy to contact that organisation for permission to cite their permission. Common politics IMHO.
    So what have Caching and Caving, (other than access agreements) got in common?

    You may feel that Common politics come into play, but under English Contract Law an agreement is only between the parties involved, any other party has to form its own contract. Therefor Geocaching can't force itself onto another parties agreement without the consent of the other parties, or forming its own agreement.

  10. #10

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    Originally posted by moote01@Jun 11 2006, 08:43 PM
    Should Geocachers be able to just use another organisations negotiated access agreement, without any prior consultation with that organisation?
    To answer this you need to define "use".

    Do you mean it was used as the basis of an agreement that Geocachers obtained, or do you mean that Geocachers did not seek permission because the believed the caving agreement covered them.

  11. #11
    The Hokesters Guest

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    Originally posted by moote01+Jun 12 2006, 12:59 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (moote01 @ Jun 12 2006, 12:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-The Hokesters@Jun 11 2006, 11:35 PM
    I agree 90% with Master Nobbs. Another organisation may be cited as evidence in seeking permission by cachers without the other organisations consent.

    I don&#39;t agree that it would be courtesy to contact that organisation for permission to cite their permission. Common politics IMHO.
    So what have Caching and Caving, (other than access agreements) got in common?

    You may feel that Common politics come into play, but under English Contract Law an agreement is only between the parties involved, any other party has to form its own contract. Therefor Geocaching can&#39;t force itself onto another parties agreement without the consent of the other parties, or forming its own agreement. [/b][/quote]
    I am only making the point that any one organisation may cite another&#39;s agreement, in their proposal to obtain permission with or without their blessing.

    Please read my post again before offering any explanation for your disagreement.

  12. #12
    Chris n Maria Guest

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    Originally posted by moote01@Jun 11 2006, 11:59 PM
    You may feel that Common politics come into play, but under English Contract Law an agreement is only between the parties involved, any other party has to form its own contract. Therefor Geocaching can&#39;t force itself onto another parties agreement without the consent of the other parties, or forming its own agreement.
    Surly the agrement would not just cover the 2 parties involved? Would every caver have to be a memeber of the organisation that negotiated the agreement? or would the agreement be for all cavers regardless of organisation?

    I have done a fair bit of caving and never joined any caving groups...was I breaking the agreement then?

    So if I am right in thinking it applies to all cavers
    I wonder how you define cavers?
    and I wonder again if your question really becomes "when does a caver become a cacher?"

  13. #13
    moote01 Guest

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    Originally posted by The Royles+Jun 12 2006, 12:41 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (The Royles @ Jun 12 2006, 12:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-moote01@Jun 11 2006, 08:43 PM
    Should Geocachers be able to just use another organisations negotiated access agreement, without any prior consultation with that organisation?
    To answer this you need to define "use".

    Do you mean it was used as the basis of an agreement that Geocachers obtained, or do you mean that Geocachers did not seek permission because the believed the caving agreement covered them. [/b][/quote]
    Use without agreement, to see that a 3rd Party has made an agreement and then to assume it covers Geocaching.

  14. #14
    moote01 Guest

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    Originally posted by Chris n Maria+Jun 12 2006, 08:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Chris n Maria @ Jun 12 2006, 08:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-moote01@Jun 11 2006, 11:59 PM
    You may feel that Common politics come into play, but under English Contract Law an agreement is only between the parties involved, any other party has to form its own contract. Therefor Geocaching can&#39;t force itself onto another parties agreement without the consent of the other parties, or forming its own agreement.
    Surly the agrement would not just cover the 2 parties involved? Would every caver have to be a memeber of the organisation that negotiated the agreement? or would the agreement be for all cavers regardless of organisation?

    I have done a fair bit of caving and never joined any caving groups...was I breaking the agreement then?

    So if I am right in thinking it applies to all cavers
    I wonder how you define cavers?
    and I wonder again if your question really becomes "when does a caver become a cacher?" [/b][/quote]
    Here is a fact, I help manage and maintain the Ease Gill SSSI both above and below ground, Walkers have free access to the above ground section of the SSSI, but to enter underground you require 2 things.

    1. A valid access permit.
    2. A valid BCA insurance card or equivalent.

    This is now more the norm in caving, not many Cachers could easily get these as you would need to be in a recognised club, and been through a probationary period to gain full membership.

    Permission to enter the system is not given without this criteria being met, this is managed by the CNCC, who look after matters in Northern England.

  15. #15
    moote01 Guest

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    Originally posted by The Hokesters+Jun 12 2006, 01:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (The Hokesters @ Jun 12 2006, 01:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
    Originally posted by moote01@Jun 12 2006, 12:59 AM
    <!--QuoteBegin-The Hokesters
    @Jun 11 2006, 11:35 PM
    I agree 90% with Master Nobbs. Another organisation may be cited as evidence in seeking permission by cachers without the other organisations consent.

    I don&#39;t agree that it would be courtesy to contact that organisation for permission to cite their permission. Common politics IMHO.

    So what have Caching and Caving, (other than access agreements) got in common?

    You may feel that Common politics come into play, but under English Contract Law an agreement is only between the parties involved, any other party has to form its own contract. Therefor Geocaching can&#39;t force itself onto another parties agreement without the consent of the other parties, or forming its own agreement.
    I am only making the point that any one organisation may cite another&#39;s agreement, in their proposal to obtain permission with or without their blessing.

    Please read my post again before offering any explanation for your disagreement. [/b][/quote]
    I read and understand, yes any Organisation can enter into negotiation, but what you can&#39;t do is take that agreement and use it as your own, it is a contract between the parties involved and as such you require to negotiate your inclusion or your agreement. Remember all contracts and 2 way and are governed by what is know as Contractual Golden rule; which means all signatories have a say in the state of a contract. But if you ain&#39;t a signatory, then you have no say within that contract.

  16. #16
    Chris n Maria Guest

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    It would help if you decided wether the thread was going to be on specifics or generalisations.

    Should Geocachers be able to just use another organisations negotiated access agreement, without any prior consultation with that organisation
    This was a general question to which I attempted to give a general answer.

    I help manage and maintain the Ease Gill SSSI....
    This is very specific. Can you see how jumping from one to the other dosn&#39;t really help.


    Permission to enter the system is not given without this criteria being met, this is managed by the CNCC, who look after matters in Northern England.
    Assuming you met these criteria you wouldn&#39;t be hijacking the agreement, if you didnt meet them then you would be outside the agreement.

    Thats the way I read it.

  17. #17
    The Hokesters Guest

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    I think I just hit the interest barrier, fell over it and landed in a satisfying coma on this subject. ^_^

  18. #18
    moote01 Guest

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    Originally posted by Chris n Maria@Jun 12 2006, 10:24 AM
    It would help if you decided wether the thread was going to be on specifics or generalisations.

    Should Geocachers be able to just use another organisations negotiated access agreement, without any prior consultation with that organisation
    This was a general question to which I attempted to give a general answer.

    I help manage and maintain the Ease Gill SSSI....
    This is very specific. Can you see how jumping from one to the other dosn&#39;t really help.


    Permission to enter the system is not given without this criteria being met, this is managed by the CNCC, who look after matters in Northern England.
    Assuming you met these criteria you wouldn&#39;t be hijacking the agreement, if you didnt meet them then you would be outside the agreement.

    Thats the way I read it.
    Firstly, is there an issue with showing an example? There are lots of agreements for various bodies, examples only help to understand issues.

    Secondly, yes if you meet the criteria, valid permit an insurance cover, then you have the right to enter. But it is gaining these that is the difficult part as only so many permits are granted in one year. It does not give you the right to place a cache, as that is a separate matter not covered in the agreement. That would have to be negotiated.

  19. #19

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    Originally posted by moote01@Jun 12 2006, 10:08 AM
    Use without agreement, to see that a 3rd Party has made an agreement and then to assume it covers Geocaching.
    IF that is the case, then Geocaching does not have an agreement.

    But if the relevant permissions for placing the cache were obtained from the landowner, then is that not also an access agreement, as the landowner would be aware that people would be seeking this cache.

    The problem is that we on the forums are not being given the full info, so we can not supply a definitive answer to any questions about the situation.

    If you could offer solid evidence that there is no permitted access to the cache site, or that permission for placing the cache was not obtained, then you would find a lot more support on here. I think we will not see anything concrete, but will be treated to yet more off topic ramblings and misdirection (lucky us).

  20. #20
    Chris n Maria Guest

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    Firstly, is there an issue with showing an example? There are lots of agreements for various bodies, examples only help to understand issues.
    No actually they don&#39;t help with understanding, they help with talking about that specific agrement. An agreement that horseriders have with the woodland trust would be completly different and raise a whole different set of issues. On the other thread I gave an example to do with the ramblers which again would be different.

    I don&#39;t see how you can expect people to give an answer to your opening question as it is way too generalised. I think you would do your case a lot more good if you tried to stay specific.

    It does not give you the right to place a cache, as that is a separate matter not covered in the agreement. That would have to be negotiated.
    Out of interest are cavers permitted to leave equipment in the cave in the course of long expeditions?

    Chris

  21. #21
    moote01 Guest

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    Originally posted by Chris n Maria@Jun 12 2006, 11:18 AM
    It does not give you the right to place a cache, as that is a separate matter not covered in the agreement. That would have to be negotiated.
    Out of interest are cavers permitted to leave equipment in the cave in the course of long expeditions?

    Chris
    Simple answer to this is yes, but all you are allowed to leave usually is Medical supplies and emergency equipment, these can be permanent

    For expeditions all kit is removed including rubbish.

    You could say that only vital kit is left either permanently or temporary, Geocaches are none essential, therefore do not fit the criteria for these; they actually fit into cave litter and would be cleaned out in a cave cleanup program.

  22. #22

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    Originally posted by moote01+Jun 12 2006, 12:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (moote01 @ Jun 12 2006, 12:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Chris n Maria@Jun 12 2006, 11:18 AM
    It does not give you the right to place a cache, as that is a separate matter not covered in the agreement. That would have to be negotiated.
    Out of interest are cavers permitted to leave equipment in the cave in the course of long expeditions?

    Chris
    Simple answer to this is yes, but all you are allowed to leave usually is Medical supplies and emergency equipment, these can be permanent

    For expeditions all kit is removed including rubbish.

    You could say that only vital kit is left either permanently or temporary, Geocaches are none essential, therefore do not fit the criteria for these; they actually fit into cave litter and would be cleaned out in a cave cleanup program. [/b][/quote]
    Seems to be wandering off Topic

    How many threads do you feel the need for?

  23. #23
    Kitty Hawk Guest

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    Oh look, there&#39;ll be times when it&#39;s OK and times when it&#39;s not. We aren&#39;t going to reach an all encompassing solution here.

  24. #24

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    Bump because I do not like secret societies (unless they are the ones I am a member of)

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