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Thread: Landowner negotiations in progress

  1. #1

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    Default Landowner negotiations in progress

    If you're in negotiation with a landowner, and you'd like to make it known to avoid anyone treading on your toes with them, post the details in this thread.

    ---
    Bill

  2. #2
    KathyXB Guest

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    I am currently 'negotiating' with personnel at Eastleigh Borough Council about placing caches in several of their Countryside sites, since I would rather start by having their permission instead of just planting some!

    So far hitting some walls (mainly they say they don't know about geocaching, they don't know what the Council's policy on geocaching is, etc etc). I hope that when its done with, they will be cacher-friendy councillors and also have a better awareness of the scale of the activity.

    (and also, the fact that there are already lots of caches within their sites, something which seems to have escaped them so far...)

    Kathy

  3. #3
    The Forester Guest

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    I'm making good progress with the Muiravonside Country Park in central Scotland. Owned by the Falkirk Council, the park is run by the Head Ranger with whom I established comms a couple of months ago.

    He's been exceptionally busy and has had to prioritise his time and understandably my geocaching request is not very high on his priority list. Understanding this, I've taken the softlee softlee approach and have limited my 'nagging' requests to a maximum of one email per month.

    Today I had a face to face chat with him. He's pro-geocaching and favourably disposed towards us. I did have to overcome his misapprehension that caches are "buried". I explained our rule about never digging with any implement in either placing or hunting a cache and I mentioned the prohibition against using any animal runs hides or burrows.

    He requested that I include a sentence on any cachepage declaring that under the wildlife conservation legislation which covers this protected area it is the Law that forbids the use of any digging implement or disturbing wildflowers or other wildlife.

    One problem which I've addressed and resolved is that there had been, for a couple of years or more, an illicit cache within the Park. The illegality of that cache was compounded by the fact that the path which it was closest to was subsequently closed and barricaded for public safety as the water erosion had made the path unmaintainable. I recovered the cache a couple of months ago. It was waterlogged and comprehensively ruined by mildew, so its replacement will be a nice new waterprrof job.

    I've got two or three very monor details to deal with before making the two caches live, but I expect to complete by the end of January.

    The Head Ranger has my caching profile contact details, as well as my personal email and home address and telephone number. By arrangement, we've agreed that I am his point of contact in the event of any matters arising from either of the two proposed caches in the park. Placement of further caches within the property, subject to the usual 0.1mile GC.com rule, will be a simple matter of informing the Ranger of the proposed location.

    This permission, which is now 99% complete, is only for the Muiravonside Countrypark and does not extend to other properties owned and operated by Falkirk Council, but I'm confident that after a few months of trouble-free geocaching we will be well placed to approach the relevant Rangers in other Council properties with a good reference from this Head Ranger.

  4. #4
    KathyXB Guest

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    Update on my approach to Eastleigh Borough Council reference placing caches on their managed sites:

    Had an email from them a few days ago giving me the go ahead for cache placement! Hurrah! Their proviso was that they are placed according to Hampshire County Council guidelines (which I stated would be the case when I initially asked for their approval) and that I inform them of the exact location and what the cache looks like.

    Another bonus of this was they said they would let the countryside officers/rangers know so that if the cache was discovered away from its proper location they would return it to position. Sounds like a very positive attitude and I think its fair to say they seem to be geo-friendly now

  5. #5

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    That's good news... very considerate of them, too Well done on your efforts!

  6. #6

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    I am in negotiation with the BMC [ British Mountaineering Council] based Manchester

  7. #7
    KathyXB Guest

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    Originally posted by Cache U Nutter@Feb 27 2007, 09:56 AM
    I am in negotiation with the BMC [ British Mountaineering Council] based Manchester
    What are you approaching them about? While I can understand that it is always good for different outdoor organisations to have a good relationship, the BMC are not landowners. Just was wondering if you could clarify?

  8. #8

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    The BMC are land owners, i.e Harrisons, Stone farm etc.
    They are also probably one of the major players in negotiating access rights in the U.K to areas of upland Britain, Coastal[ cliff sites]and areas of rock outcrops.
    As a friend of their former National access officer I am well aware of the problems that are faced in trying to achieve access to these areas. Given the number of climbers and mountaineers/ fellwalkers in this country [ many, many times more than the current number of Geocachers] it would be prudent to learn from and cooperate with them to help our own needs. [[I also want to place caches on their land!!]
    As a long time mountaineer myself with many contacts in the fraternity that is why I am talking to them.

  9. #9
    nobbynobbs Guest

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    excellent news. good luck. with any luck you'll be able to appraoch the landowners that have agreements with them and piggy back caching agreements. fingers crossed. not too many mountains down in hampshire though so it'll have to wait for a trip before i can make use of it!!

  10. #10

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    Good point that about piggy backing on agreements, but a long way off yet! also not sure how individual land owners would feel about that ?

  11. #11
    nobbynobbs Guest

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    my thought were that if they have a greed to the climbers then they would possibly be open to an approach from cachers, especially when CITO is explained and so on.
    by piggy backing i meant that if they have certain conditions already agreed then they may be happy for the same conditions to be applied to us, obviously only after asking them.

    keep us informed and let us know if you need help.

  12. #12

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    Will certainly keep you updated, will see what I can do

  13. #13
    nobbynobbs Guest

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    contacting the hampshire wildlife trust to try and get a general agreement accross all their sites.

  14. #14
    KernowCachers Guest

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    Here are the email replies I received following a request to place a cache on some NT land nearby. (Nearby being North Cornwall)

    Dear Jan,

    Your faxed letter of 26 March requesting consent to place a geocache on National Trust land between Minster Church and the Valency valley has been passed to me.

    I am sorry that it has taken a little time to come back to you, but since receiving your request I have been making enquiries within the Trust about our experience of the impact of geocahes elsewhere. I am sorry to say that on other sites where these have been allowed the Trust has experienced considerable difficulties. In one case a property was extensively damaged by digging as people tried to find the geocahe and in others there have been significant trampling and erosion problems in the area around the geocahe location.

    The site you suggest could easily be damaged if similar problems were experienced here and I am sorry to say therefore that we can not give permission for the geocache to be placed. I realise that this will be a disappointment and appreciate that the majority of people seeking out the geocache would act carefully and responsibly but, as I am sure you will understand, our priority must be to avoid damage to the site. I hope you will be successful in finding an alternative location.

    Kind regards,

    Ian Kemp.
    Property Manager, North Cornwall
    .
    -------------------------

    From me:

    I understand The Trust's position. Can you confirm if this would be the case for any NT land across Cornwall or would each location be considered independently upon request?


    ------------------------

    Jan,

    With the Geocahe being a relatively new feature, I don't think we have a clear position statement that covers the whole of the Trust yet. However, I am going to a meeting on Friday where I will raise this with the other countryside managers in Devon and Cornwall. I will hopefully be able to update you then.

    Ian
    -----------------------

    I'll let you know what the final outcome is. Hopefully I can at least negotiate a trial period at one location so that the office can have something local to base their decission on.

  15. #15
    minxyy Guest

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    Hi all just to let you know I am currntly in negotiations with the Borough of Poole to try to get them to agree to us placing geocaches on land under their durestriction!

    I had a positive reply today via e-mail saying that they'd have to have a meeting about it and would get back to me in approx two weeks!

    I have sent
    -printouts of very good local caches
    -copies of agreements rached with Hampshire
    -copies of agreements wioth New Forest
    -copy of CITO event in Oxford - also showing how well it was attended and the 'mess' they cleared out!
    - a covering letter with web addreses for Gagb, Geocaching.com and Hampshire Council
    - a list of possible locations for caches including a newly refurbished Poole Park!
    - pictures of the different cache containers we use from micro to ammo

    I have also offered to take them out Geocaching if they wish! Will have to pick some great urban ones!

    Does anyone know of any agreement with Bournemouth Council As I note there are a lot in that vicinity

    Any advice/support would be really appreciated

    Many thanks
    Manda

  16. #16
    nobbynobbs Guest

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    no idea about bournemouth, fingers crossed that an agreement was made........
    best way would be to contact a few owners first and see what they say.

    re the agreement.... do not push the new forest agreement, it is a little restrictive, better one is the hampshire county council.

    good work.

  17. #17
    imajica Guest

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    I'm about to start asking Waverley Borough Council about placing a cache on their land. There is a Countryside Ranger that deals specifically with the area I wish to place a cache so I will contact him first but there is a good chance i'll get referred to somebody at Waverley or maybe even Surrey County Council.

    I've not seen any previous agreements or attempted negociations but there are plenty of caches around, I'm worried that by asking for permission it might draw attention to these other caches I shall try asking some of these cachers if they have permission and if so go from there but i'm very sure they are not all permitted caches!

    Hope this doesn't all backfire, i'll have the rest of the Surrey cachers on my back

  18. #18

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    We,ve found what we think could be a possible hidey hole in a tree near Boscombe Overcliff Gardens (Bournemouth )
    but so far have chickened out of seeking permission from Bournemouth Parks Department to place a cache for the reasons stated above in previous two postings :unsure:
    We like Greens

  19. #19
    KathyXB Guest

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    I can understand some reticence in asking about permission in an area where caches exist that may have been placed without an agreement having been sought but surely its better to start a negotiation than have the local authorities suddenly discover that there are caches (without permission) and shut down the lot?

    I personally don't agree with the idea of keeping caching, or other pursuits, hushed up or secret in order to preserve the activity - far better to be open and honest and get councils on side so it can be encouraged (by good, well placed caches that bring people to areas of interest/beauty) and not become seen as a 'problem' to wildlife or land.

    If you can contact local authorities/councils with a confident approach, able to show them you understand how to avoid negative impact on the areas, and show them well-placed local caches as an example, then I reckon reasonable officials will at least take the time to consider what you are proposing.

    Go for it...

  20. #20

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    There have been previous instances where cachers have sought permission for caches in areas where there have already been caches in position without permission. Often the landowners have proved to be very understanding and co-operative, so don't let existing caches which may well not have permission deter you.

    The worst scenario is that the landowner removes the existing caches, but if that happens, well, it was going to sooner or later anyway... As Kathy says, it's far better to be open and honest.
    ​​Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light. (Dylan Thomas)​


  21. #21
    nobbynobbs Guest

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    again i can only back up what kathy and bill have said. but first stage would be to contact the other cachers anyway.
    at the end of the day they might well have permission to have those caches there and your belief that no permission could be erroneous.

    then go ahead and open negotiations. it is easier to say sorry after us approaching them than the other way.

    so hopefully we can expect an agreement from the bournemouth authorities soon then.

  22. #22

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    Not from us ,we are feeling pressurised already ...and that's just from last few postings on here .

    And apolgies to cache owners in Bournmouth who might now be reading stuff we didn't intend in our posting earlier .Our wariness is solely based on postings we,ve seen elsewhere in the past re cachers seeking permission from the landowners /managers etc and the landowners /agents etc knowing nothing about caches already there .
    We like Greens

  23. #23
    nobbynobbs Guest

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    pressured? not my intention by any means. i interpretted your post as a desire to contact the council and formalise the agreements with them, but you being too reticent to commit so encouragement given.


    would hate to think of people not getting out there and making agreements based on mistaken beliefs and fear.


    same as anything in life, the more involved people get, actually doing more than wishfull thinking then the better it is for all.....

  24. #24

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    Bill and Pat, I certainly didn't intend to make you feel pressurised in any way! Yes, I know there have been cases of landowners being approached and then discovering there were caches on their land that they didn't know about, and some of those cases have turned out badly. But as I said above, sometimes it goes the other way...

    Edit: Oops, I forgot I was logged in as Admin - this is Bill posting...!

    ---
    Bill D (wwh)

  25. #25
    nobbynobbs Guest

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    so i'm assuming from that that no one is contacting bournemouth then? or is it all being left to minxyy.

    good luck to them hopefully they will be able to acheive both, i'm sure that there will be lots of caches placed once permission is formalised. be good to have an excuse to get down to bournemouth caching again.

  26. #26
    imajica Guest

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    Well I have bad news. Waverley Borough Council have answered my initial approach email with a big no to Geocaching on their land. Which is... worrying :unsure: I daren't push this as there are many, many other resident cachers to think about. I'm really disappointed because i'd taken great care to write the perfect email.

    In a slightly confusing twist they told me that the site I was requesting permission for isn't even Waverley land : This baffles me as I live there and I'd emailed the designated Waverley Countryside Ranger directly from their website. So now I could contact Surrey CC, but to be honest I'm afraid of rejection on a grand scale.

  27. #27
    nobbynobbs Guest

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    your best bet is to try to contact the ranger personally to have a meeting. don't even say what about, just that you need to discuss a use of the land.

    if it's the forest, could it be the forestry commission? might already be covered under their agreements with us.

    any local cachers with caches in similar locations? worth dropping them an email to ask.

    you often acheive much more talking to the local person instead of the faceless person in the main office. they tend to be very busy and it's just easier to say no.

  28. #28
    imajica Guest

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    I did try and contact the local ranger, but they're all in the same office and I can see my email has been forwarded via three different people further up the chain.

    On a more positive note I tried Surrey County Council and the Senior Countryside Access Officer there has been incredibly helpful. He said that he wasn't aware of Geocaching but now realises what all these boxes are!

    I'm now going to go on and attempt to arrange a trial agreement with the Surrey Wildlife Trust

  29. #29
    nobbynobbs Guest

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    good luck with the wildlife trust, i'm seeing the hants and IOW trust tomorrow. they aren't very positive at the moment time to turn on the charm.... i'm in trouble!!!

    the trouble is people either get this hobby or not. the ones who don't are too busy worrying about us to be influenced!!!

  30. #30

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    imajica wrote:
    He said that he wasn't aware of Geocaching but now realises what all these boxes are!
    Well, at least he knew they were there and wasn't horrified...! Best of luck with your approaches!
    ​​Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light. (Dylan Thomas)​


  31. #31
    KernowCachers Guest

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    Here is the latest news re nogotiations with the National Trust in Cornwall.

    Dear Jan,

    I am sorry that I have been so long in coming back to you. However having now made contact with our national access and recreation section and done some more research, I am pleased to say that I am able to be much more positive about the prospect of a new geocahe located on our land.

    I would like to take up the proposal outlined in your last letter and set up a geocache location which we can closely monitor along the lines you suggest.

    Our requirements when trying to identify a suitable site would be as follows:

    1. That the geocache should not be buried
    2. That it should not be placed where other visitors are likely to find it
    3. That its location should not promote ant potentially dangerous behaviour by others egg; It should not be necessary to have to climb or swim to the geocahe location.
    4. That the chosen location should not disrupt any sensitive natural habitats.

    I imagine that there will be plenty of scope to identify locations that satisfy these criteria so it should be possible to agree a suitable place for a trial. Once we have done this we can give it a go.

    I would like to involve our Area Warden, Mike, in helping to identify and agreeing to the trail site so I am copying him in on this email and will ask him to make contact with you over the next few days to make arrangements.

    I hope the trial proves a success and will be interested to see how it all works.

    Kind regards,

    Ian.


    I'll think carefully before suggesting a location and placing a cache...... Lets hope this can result in a blanket agreement for the County very soon

    Jan
    KernowCachers

  32. #32
    nobbynobbs Guest

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    excellent work, can't wait for the cache.

  33. #33

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    Great work, Jan, that's really good!
    ​​Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light. (Dylan Thomas)​


  34. #34
    imajica Guest

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    Ok. I'm going around in circles with my requests so I'm after some advice The local ranger who I originally emailed has been on holiday, so despite being told no by someone else in his office i've now had a very helpful email from him:

    "Hi Rachael.

    Thanks for getting in touch. It's nice to be asked permission for geocaching.

    ...

    Whilst we're in touch, I believe that there are a few other locations nearby that are under Waverley's management which are also being used for geocaching, and it would be useful to ensure that we as managers know where the caches are situated so that we don't remove them as litter for one thing.

    I believe that caches exist on Frensham Common, Blackheath Common and possibly other sites within the Borough. Is there any chance you could provide further details of them?

    Many thanks in advance."

    Now what do I do? Contact all the owners? :wacko: Do a Pocket Query and lend him my GPS for the weekend I want to help as much as possible obviously. I know for the landownder agreements there is a "geocacher contact", is that where I should be leading this?

  35. #35
    nobbynobbs Guest

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    it's a pain but my first action eould be to contact the owners of the caches to ask who gave them permission, could be that it's all legit and easily sortable.

    if not then let them ranger know where they are and eat some humble pie to hopefully smooth over any aggro.

    don't worry too much at this stage it might all fit nicely in place with permissions already granted. just because it's under their management doesn't mean they are the only people who can grant permission, someone owns the land

  36. #36

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    Imajica, I might be able to offer you a little help with this. Email on its way...

    ---
    Bill, Chairman GAGB
    ​​Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light. (Dylan Thomas)​


  37. #37
    imajica Guest

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    I'm back again! Im not very much further forward but it turns out that (of those that have replied to me) either no permissions had been granted or it was so long ago that the details have been lost with previous rangers.

    The ranger has spoken to his colleagues and it turns out that one has recently removed a cache so I was a little too late to save that one He has asked me to email grid references for a bunch of caches directly to the relevent ranger so that they can work out the suitability of the locations. Is it ok to do this if I don't get permission from the cache setters? I only hope these other rangers are as positive as the chap i'm currently dealing with :unsure:

    Also - I STILL dont have permission for the cache I was getting in touch with originally :

  38. #38

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    imajica wrote:
    He has asked me to email grid references for a bunch of caches directly to the relevent ranger so that they can work out the suitability of the locations. Is it ok to do this if I don't get permission from the cache setters?
    I don't see that there's a problem with this as it's information in the public domain. After all, they can if they wish get it directly from gc.com themselves.
    ​​Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light. (Dylan Thomas)​


  39. #39

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    After success with Isle of Man official bodies DAFF (Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forests) and MNH (Manx National Heritage), I felt fairly confident about approaching the Isle of Man Water Authority for cache permission, particularly having been given a contact name.

    I was seeking permission to place a cache on what is clearly IOMWA land, about 200 yards from the edge of a reservoir, up a hill and adjacent to a track. Permission refused: no right of way to access the cache area (true, although the track is in common use), and too close to the reservoir (not sure of the relevance of that one).

    So I accepted the decision, and asked whether a cache with access by public footpath would be likely to get approved - "probably, yes".

    A week later, I had the perfect site: near a reservoir again but right at the side of a public footpath (a very popular one for dog walkers and anglers). Approx 5408.218'N, 440.445'W. A gentle grass slope leads gradually down from the proposed cache site for about 150 yards to the gently sloping reservoir bank (at a particularly popular spot for trout fishing). A bench just the other side of the path has been provided for admiring the scene. The path is well-maintained.

    Permission refused: still too close to the reservoir, concerns about the contents of the box (which would have been a repainted ammo box, although they didn't check) causing water supply problems, also concerns about "security".

    Although my original e-mail request had links to the GAGB guidelines, and explained about the cache not being buried, the contents being harmless and the visits infrequent, it appears that permission is never going to be granted within proximity of a reservoir. Is this the case elsewhere? Is there a precedent for a Water Authority to refuse caches on the grounds of a cache box causing health and safety problems?

    I'm not THAT desperate to set a cache near a reservoir, but a little more correspondence may at least make them re-think this approach and smooth the way for possible future caches in what appears to be a highly suitable spot. Any suggestions as to the next step?

  40. #40

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    If you haven't already, I wonder if it would help to meet your contact in person, perhaps taking a cache container and contents along. It sounds as if the problems are at least in part due to misconceptions, and a face-to-face meeting might help things along. Best of luck with whatever you try!
    ​​Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light. (Dylan Thomas)​


  41. #41
    BillW Guest

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    Currently speaking with Stockton Borough Council.


  42. #42

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    [QUOTE=nobbynobbs,May 16 2007, 05:08 AM]good luck with the wildlife trust, i'm seeing the hants and IOW trust tomorrow. they aren't very positive at the moment time to turn on the charm.... i'm in trouble!!!


    There is a place near my home that I would like to hide a cache but it is a Hampshire & IOW Wildlife Trust site. Can I approach them for permission for this single site or should I wait as you are negotiating with them? This would be the first try at hiding a cache.

  43. #43
    nobbynobbs Guest

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    Hang on as the agreement is for all their sites. still going through just slowly at this stage. PM me if you want to discuss the idea and location.

  44. #44

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    I just wondered if anyone had ever had contact with the environment agency. As theres a lovely old railway bridge here over a river owned by the EA, thats part of a public footpath. If not, does anyone have any objection to me contacting them?

  45. #45

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    I'm not aware of any geocaching contact with the Environment Agency, but I may of course be corrected on that. Go ahead and contact them by all means, and good luck with your attempt! If you need any help along the way then post here or feel free to PM me.

    ---
    Bill, Chairman GAGB
    ​​Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light. (Dylan Thomas)​


  46. #46
    reelcutter Guest

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    I was advised to visit after going on the forums. I am currently in talks with the National Trust warden for Wenlock edge, we are quite a way along and we are going to meet to discuss it, so he knows exactly what is going on. He has been very helpful and likes the idea of people visiting the area.

  47. #47

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    That sounds very promising! Good luck with it, and let us know the outcome.
    ​​Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light. (Dylan Thomas)​


  48. #48
    reelcutter Guest

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    Hi I just posting a note to say all went well regarding the cache placement at Wenlock edge, due to the nature of the site we opted for an Earthcache. The National trust warden was most helpful but stressed the need to ask their permission before doing anything on the land he has in his care, which is fair enough I think. cheers Nigel & Jann.

  49. #49
    nobbynobbs Guest

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    good news, though i never really understood why anyone would think that people finding an earthcache would cause less disturbance or anything than for a regular cache.
    a cache is better than no cache

  50. #50

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    I'm pleased to hear that you got permission! Wenlock Edge sounds like a marvellous location for an earthcache, and it'll bring the warden the extra visitors that he wants!
    ​​Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light. (Dylan Thomas)​


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