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Thread: Landowner negotiations in progress

  1. #51

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    I've approached Corporation of London with respect to granting permission to cache at Burnham Beeches, with a view to gaining consent across all their estates in and around London.

  2. #52

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    I intend to approach Natural England with respect to establishing the GAGB geocaching guidelines (or as close as is possible) as accepted practice for geocaching in Sites of Special Scientific Interest (SSSIs) that are clasified as "open access" - where the public are permitted to go wherever they like, not restricted to posted rights of way.

    There are very many existing caches in open access SSSIs, including recently published ones, however I have had a cache submission rejected because it is in an open access SSSI, albeit on common land. I think the fact that there is such inconsistency demonstrates that there is too great an onus on geocaching.com's reviewers and this needs to be mitigated.

    As an example, Swinley Forest to the south of Bracknell, is not only a SSSI but also a European Special Protection Area (SPA) for rare ground nesting birds including the Dartford Warbler. Caches have existed here since the early days of caching and indeed one of them was placed with the explicit consent and participation of Bracknell Forest Borough Council.

    Furthermore, Natural England's own public access database of SSSI's is woefully incomplete: Swinley Forest itself does not appear in the open access database, only in the general database.

    The motivation for this approach to Natural England is therefore primarily to remove any ambiguity and make life easier for geocaching.com's reviewers. It would have the added benefit of providing a consistent approach applicable to other geocaching web sites too.

  3. #53

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    Sandvika,

    Good luck with your negotiations. Let me/us know if you need any support.


    Caching since 2001
    Founder member of GAGB (2003)
    Committee (2003-2013)
    Chair of GAGB (2010-2012)
    Negotiator of 18 Landowner Agreements
    GAGB Friend

  4. #54
    nobbynobbs Guest

    Default

    good luck.

    my cache "Stop and smell the roses 2" is on what was then english nature land and is a sssi.

    it wasn't too hard to get permission from the local warden who was more than happy to come out and give the yes to the final location.

    we did hope to expand upon it's success in introducing caching onto their land and showing that it had limited impact. unfortunately time, the change to natural england and a position move for the ranger knocked that idea.

    i'm happy to help where possible.

  5. #55

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    Good luck with London and with Natural England, sandvika! Yes, there do seem to be ambiguities and inconsistencies regarding open access SSSIs, and it would be great to see things clarified. Let us know how it all goes.
    ​​Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light. (Dylan Thomas)​


  6. #56

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    I'm sorry but in your post, you seem to be missing mentioning the need for the permission of the actual landowner as well.

    Natural England is the Regulatory Body for areas classified as being a SSSI, the land is still owned by someone. And that someone is the person who needs to provide initial permission, refering it to Natural England if this person feels that their approval is needed.

    Just have a agreement with Natural England does no by pass the need to have the actual permission off the landowner.

    From Geocaching.coms Geocache Listing Requirments

    Off-limit (Physical) Caches

    By submitting a cache listing, you assure us that you have adequate permission to hide your cache in the selected location. However, if we see a cache description that mentions ignoring "No Trespassing" signs (or any other obvious issues), your listing may be immediately archived. We also assume that your cache placement complies with all applicable laws. If an obvious legal issue is present, or is brought to our attention, your listing may be immediately archived.
    As for your comment




    There are very many existing caches in open access SSSIs, including recently published ones, however I have had a cache submission rejected because it is in an open access SSSI, albeit on common land. I think the fact that there is such inconsistency demonstrates that there is too great an onus on geocaching.com's reviewers and this needs to be mitigated.
    The Reviewer in question simply followed standard procedure followed by all 3 UK Reviewers where we are aware a cache or caches are located in a area classified as a SSSI. And simply asked for contact details of the appropriate person acting on behalf of the Landowner who gave permission for the placement of the caches.

    Something I personally can not see changing in the future.

    Deceangi
    My post is my personal opinion and as such you do not have my permission to quote me outside of these forums!

    Dave
    Brenin Tegeingl
    Formerly known as Mancunian Pyrocacher on GC

  7. #57
    Lactodorum Guest

    Default

    Originally posted by sandvika@Mar 12 2008, 01:37 PM
    I think the fact that there is such inconsistency demonstrates that there is too great an onus on geocaching.com's reviewers and this needs to be mitigated.
    I'm sorry if we seem to be failing to meet your exacting standards. However by denying your cache series all the reviewer was doing was applying a consistent approach we all take when we know a cache is in a SSSI. I'm sure that once the requested details have been provided the caches will be published.

    Thank you for your concern for us though.

  8. #58

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    Originally posted by Lactodorum@Mar 13 2008, 02:41 PM
    I'm sorry if we seem to be failing to meet your exacting standards.
    For the avoidance of any doubt, the standards that appear to be woefully inadequate are those of Natural England's current web services. Perhaps this is due to the fact that they are a new government agency and have not yet had time to get their act together, though I would have expected them to inherit their databases from their predecessors. Since their online databases don't correspond to reality on the ground on any of the several locations I queried , you, as cache reviewers can only do your best with the information available, which I am certain you do. :halo:

    Of course, if there is a landowner involved, they would be the first port of call, however, landowners are obligated to defer to Natural England anyway.

  9. #59

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    Originally posted by sandvika@Mar 12 2008, 10:20 AM
    I've approached Corporation of London with respect to granting permission to cache at Burnham Beeches, with a view to gaining consent across all their estates in and around London.
    Refusal @ Burnham Beeches

    It looks like I'm by no means the first to ask and the outcome is de-facto policy. Of course it explains why such a large "hole" in the geocaching landscape exists.


    Thank you for your request. Requests for geocaches at BB are increasingly common. As the site is a national nature reserve it is essential to maintain the delicate balance between recreation and conservation. To that end I am consistently declining requests to place geocaches on the site..

  10. #60

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    Sorry to hear about this refusal. Thanks for letting us know, I've added this to the database as permission refused.


    Caching since 2001
    Founder member of GAGB (2003)
    Committee (2003-2013)
    Chair of GAGB (2010-2012)
    Negotiator of 18 Landowner Agreements
    GAGB Friend

  11. #61
    starkey444 Guest

    Default

    Hi all, I've been in contact with Wokingham Borough Council since November 2007 asking them to reverse their decision to stop caching in their Parks - these included

    Dinton Pastures Country Park
    California Country Park
    Highwood
    Keephatch
    Aldermoors
    Pearmains Copse
    Heathlake
    The Moors
    Warren Wood
    The Millenium Arboretum
    Lavells Lake Nature Reserve
    Charvil Meadows

    The good news is that I've received the following communication from them...

    Hello Chris
    I’ve spoken with Chris Buggy and he has asked me to relay to you that our decision is that we will consider requests from ‘individuals’ wishing to place geocaches at Dinton or any other of our sites, and will accept up to 3 at any one time depending on the site. This will enable us to monitor the geocaching and either be in a position to allow for more or reduce the number we have depending on how we feel it is working out.

    I hope this clarifies the situation for you.

    Kind regards

    Hilary

    Hilary Rothery
    Countryside Service Administrator
    Wokingham Borough Council
    Countryside Service
    Dinton Pastures Country Park
    Davis Street
    Hurst, Berkshire, RG10 0TH


    RESULT!!!!

    So if anyone wants to put caches in the above parks, they'll need to contact the Countryside Service where they will accept/reject/monitor the caching on their land.

    Regards
    Chris Starke (Starkey444)

  12. #62
    nobbynobbs Guest

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    well done

  13. #63

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    Congratulations on achieving that, Chris - that's really good...!
    ​​Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light. (Dylan Thomas)​


  14. #64

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    I've made contact with Stoke-on-Trent city council RE: placing caching on greenway land. Will keep everyone updated

  15. #65
    nobbynobbs Guest

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    good luck.

  16. #66
    Team Vorvik Guest

    Default Applying for permission with York City Council.

    I have wanted to place a Geocache at a local Nature Reserve which is managed by Yorkshire Wildlife Trust so i arranged to meet with their Community Development Officer Vicky Harland. She listened to my descriptions of what Geocaching was all about and the guidelines that GAGB have used to gain permission to place Geocaches on others land/property, she seemed aware of the advantages of what geocaching would have on their sites and wasn't sure that this is what they would agree to. It didnt make my job any easier when she replied to me describing what geocaching was, with the statement "oh, thats what that little box was at Moorlands that we found, we didnt know what it was so we just left it there". This was found on a school educational trip to their site, she went on to say that she went back later to try and find it and it wasn't there, reading the logs for this site i wonder if thats the time it went awol and was found at another seat on the reserve and replaced at the correct seat? So i took this as a "NO, in principal to the site i was looking at", however the YWT have a lot of land and it would be a shame if this is the case, maybe someone with more experience would have got a different reply? However she did give me the name of a person who is in charge of open spaces and parks in York (York City Council) who i have approached and work is still underway on trying to obtain permission for caches that are already in place and caches in future, will let you know the outcome asap.

  17. #67
    Team Vorvik Guest

    Default York City Council

    Have just had a message left for me which sounded very fruitful, it would appear that City of York Council are giving us the all clear to place caches on their land etc, i'm just awaiting the written permission be it in a letter format or via email.
    :cheers:

    Team vorvik

  18. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Vorvik View Post
    Have just had a message left for me which sounded very fruitful, it would appear that City of York Council are giving us the all clear to place caches on their land etc, i'm just awaiting the written permission be it in a letter format or via email.
    :cheers:

    Team vorvik
    That's great, very well done indeed! I know you've put a lot of work into achieving this!
    ​​Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light. (Dylan Thomas)​


  19. #69
    mousytrap Guest

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    Still wondering whether there's an agreement for Environment agency yet. Can't seem to email Reddeeps to ask (see two pages back)...

  20. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by mousytrap View Post
    Still wondering whether there's an agreement for Environment agency yet. Can't seem to email Reddeeps to ask (see two pages back)...

    Hi
    Some one has pointed me in this direction.
    But no theres no agreement yet, its has been virtually impossible to find anyone to give me an answer. All areas are indiviually managed, they don't own all the land they manage, the individual area I contacted agreed on the phone that its ok, then 2 days later i got a call from the regional office, saying no way. I have tried to contact someone at head quarters but have never been called back. I must admit I have put it on the back burner for the last few months, as other things have been on my mind, but I could try again after xmas, or you are more than welcome to take it on.
    You should be able to email me via my groundspeak account.
    Thanks

  21. #71
    reelcutter Guest

    Default Blanket agreements

    Hi all, I have one years trial on a cache coming to an end in October and I was wondering if I get the all clear for it to stay, what do I need to ask for regarding a blanket agreement with them. Any advice would be great thanks Nigel.

  22. #72

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    Nigel, if it's a landowner with other locations then a blanket permission may need to be considered by someboidy else although a successful placement for a year is a great reference.

    The first step to a blanket permission is agreement in principle, then agree any conditions and a process by which requests can be made.

    I suggest you get yours agreed first and then ask if your contact is the right person to speak to about a blanket permission. If you'd like any help with the blanket permission then let me know.


    Caching since 2001
    Founder member of GAGB (2003)
    Committee (2003-2013)
    Chair of GAGB (2010-2012)
    Negotiator of 18 Landowner Agreements
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  23. #73
    reelcutter Guest

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    Ok thanks, I'll see if I can get mine permanent first then proceed from there, Fingers crossed.
    Nigel.

  24. #74
    Zpyder Guest

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    I've just finally written off an email to the person in the East Dorset Countryside management service to begin negotiations on placing a cache in a local forest that they manage. As I only just started the hobby in January, I've been waiting till I'd clocked up some finds. I'm hoping 35 under my belt will have given me enough experience to discuss the nature of caching as well as find a suitable location etc!

    I will keep you guys informed. I think the location/forest is an ideal woodland cache and dash, with plenty of access routes and very well managed paths. I'm undecided on a short multi-stage or a classic cache!

  25. #75
    Zpyder Guest

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    I've been given the go-ahead RE: the above location

    See copied email below:

    Hello Chris

    Thanks for asking permission and for your compliments re: the site.

    I cant see a problem with putting a cache at Poor Common at all.

    If you could send me details of the cache that would be interesting

    Good luck with it

    matt

  26. #76

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zpyder View Post
    I've been given the go-ahead RE: the above location

    See copied email below:

    well done

  27. #77
    dunk090 Guest

    Default FC Inverness

    Hello,

    I've searched through this forum and can't find any reference to the FC Inverness district. I'm about to approach them for permission to place a cache on their land near Feshiebridge - if they're receptive then I'll see if it can be extended to their whole area. Similar to the Central & Lowland Scotland agreements.

    If someone has already done this or is in progress, please let me know!

  28. #78

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    Re FC Inverness - good luck with your application! It can be a long-drawn out process sometimes, so be prepared to be patient.

    We have agreements with FC Scottish Lowlands and FC Central Scotland in our database here - it might be useful to refer to those when you approach them.

    We also have a Permission Application letter here which anyone is free to use and adapt as appropriate if necessary.
    Last edited by Bill D (wwh); 18th March 2009 at 02:36 PM. Reason: For clarity
    ​​Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light. (Dylan Thomas)​


  29. #79
    dunk090 Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill D (wwh) View Post
    Re FC Inverness - good luck with your application! It can be a long-drawn out process sometimes, so be prepared to be patient.

    We have agreements with FC Scottish Lowlands and FC Central Scotland in our database here - it might be useful to refer to those when you approach them.

    We also have a Permission Application letter here which anyone is free to use and adapt as appropriate if necessary.
    Thanks Bill. I went through this before with a cache in an Edinburgh park - that took about two visits to the park rangers office in the end to get permission. But then I hadn't found the resources you have here to refer to...here goes!

  30. #80
    nobbynobbs Guest

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    Any update on the negotiations with natural england? or have they ceased?

  31. #81

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    Post Environment Agency

    Quote Originally Posted by reddeeps View Post
    Hi
    Some one has pointed me in this direction.
    But no theres no agreement yet, its has been virtually impossible to find anyone to give me an answer. All areas are indiviually managed, they don't own all the land they manage, the individual area I contacted agreed on the phone that its ok, then 2 days later i got a call from the regional office, saying no way. I have tried to contact someone at head quarters but have never been called back. I must admit I have put it on the back burner for the last few months, as other things have been on my mind, but I could try again after xmas, or you are more than welcome to take it on.
    You should be able to email me via my groundspeak account.
    Thanks
    The Environment Agency do own bits of land but generally do not own rivers and riverbanks (unless they are floodbanks - and then sometimes they only have powers over them). Legal agreements seem to be managed by the Estates departments (sometimes the Legal dept), in the Regional Offices. You could try there...

    "Finding oneself is the quest of life...”

  32. #82

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    Default the "new" Northumberland County Council

    Quote Originally Posted by Admin View Post
    If you're in negotiation with a landowner, and you'd like to make it known to avoid anyone treading on your toes with them, post the details in this thread.

    ---
    Bill
    As far as I can see, no one has approached the new Northumberland County Council, they have "inherited" all the land aquired by the old District and Borough Councils.

    I am making enquiries now.

    If anyone else has had contact with NCC in the past or is currently, please let me know.

    Cheers!

    David
    11011100

    "Finding oneself is the quest of life...”

  33. #83

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    I've been away from geocaching for quite some time, mainly because of a serious back problem, but, after an operation just before Christmas, my mobility has been improving and I'm trying to make a gradual comeback! As a result of my wanting to place a cache on land owned and maintained by Ringwood Town Council, I've contacted the Clerk (who I happen to know from my full-time working days) with a view to getting permission for my cache and a general agreement of some kind, perhaps based on the one with Hampshire County Council. He's back from quite a long holiday on Monday, though, and probably won't be able to get back to me for a week or so. I'll keep you informed of progress.
    Last edited by LoisInTheForest; 24th April 2009 at 07:12 PM.

  34. #84
    nobbynobbs Guest

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    Good luck with that. You know my number

  35. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by LoisInTheForest View Post
    I've been away from geocaching for quite some time, mainly because of a serious back problem, but, after an operation just before Christmas, my mobility has been improving and I'm trying to make a gradual comeback! As a result of my wanting to place a cache on land owned and maintained by Ringwood Town Council, I've contacted the Clerk (who I happen to know from my full-time working days) with a view to getting permission for my cache and a general agreement of some kind, perhaps based on the one with Hampshire County Council. He's back from quite a long holiday on Monday, though, and probably won't be able to get back to me for a week or so. I'll keep you informed of progress.
    I'd noticed you'd gone "awol" and I'm pleased to hear that you're back and making progress! Good luck with Ringwood Town Council...!
    ​​Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light. (Dylan Thomas)​


  36. #86

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    Thanks! I'll post info up as soon as I get a response to my e-mail.
    It only takes one drink to get me drunk, but I can never remember if it was the thirteenth or fourteenth.

  37. #87

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    Default Rspb

    I have started communications with the RSPB and will report back if/when I receive a reply. Fingers crossed.
    I can only please one person a day. Today is not your day, tomorrow is not looking good either.

  38. #88

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    Greetings
    An innocent enquiry, as a complete newbie geocacher, to Oxford City Council has provoked the following responce:
    'No we don't, but perhaps we should. I have had some contact with
    Geocache.com in the past and their local rep sent me a sample agreement
    that they had with another LA. I regret that no progress was made in
    modifying this to meet our needs but you have prompted me to dig the
    info out and revisit the issue. I will contact you again in due course.
    '

    So suddenly I am a potential GAGB negotiator hmy:which I don't mind at all, but I see mention of a local (nameless) representative who has already been in contact, so I may have stepped on someone else's toes. So sorry...but maybe it will just prompt a response to the original enquiry. In which case...no harm done.
    Pip pip!
    Asriel

    (Sorry, for some reason I don't understand, this post got trapped by our spam filter. Bill)
    Last edited by Bill D (wwh); 4th May 2009 at 08:02 PM. Reason: Approved post

  39. #89

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    Have received a reply from the RSPB which says...

    "Thank you for your email. Currently I'm busy with various pieces of other work and I also need to consult with several other colleagues about your request. I will reply to you in due course, but please bear with me for the time being"
    At least it is not a no, and hopefully a positive result will come from it.
    I can only please one person a day. Today is not your day, tomorrow is not looking good either.

  40. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turtlebum View Post
    "Thank you for your email. Currently I'm busy with various pieces of other work and I also need to consult with several other colleagues about your request. I will reply to you in due course, but please bear with me for the time being"
    At least it is not a no, and hopefully a positive result will come from it.
    As you say, at least it's not a no - best of luck with this!
    ​​Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light. (Dylan Thomas)​


  41. #91

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    It looks as though I'm getting somewhere with Ringwood Town Council and they've asked me to go to their Recreation, Leisure & Open Spaces Committee tomorrow evening. I'll let you know what happens.
    It only takes one drink to get me drunk, but I can never remember if it was the thirteenth or fourteenth.

  42. #92
    nobbynobbs Guest

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    :cheers:excellent news good luck

  43. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by LoisInTheForest View Post
    It looks as though I'm getting somewhere with Ringwood Town Council and they've asked me to go to their Recreation, Leisure & Open Spaces Committee tomorrow evening. I'll let you know what happens.
    That's really good news - best of luck with it!
    ​​Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light. (Dylan Thomas)​


  44. #94

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    Default National Trust - Shirehampton Park, Bristol

    Hi

    I am currently negotiating with the National Trust about placing a cache in the above park, which is also Shirehampton Golf Club.

    At the moment they are being very helpful.
    There is already a cache on this land, but i somehow think it has not had official approval as it seems to have been relocated there off "private" (sic) land !

    :cheers:

    John B

  45. #95

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    Good news - Ringwood Town Council have agreed to allow caching on their land along the lines of the Hampshire County Council agreement. Their Clerk will get in touch with a view to formalising this, so what would you like me to do?
    It only takes one drink to get me drunk, but I can never remember if it was the thirteenth or fourteenth.

  46. #96

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    Congratulations - I'm really pleased to hear that they're being so positive!

    An agreement on the lines of the HCC one sounds good - just go ahead, and let us know when it's signed and sealed and we'll add it to the GLAD.

    If you need any specific advice or assistance feel free to PM me.
    ​​Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light. (Dylan Thomas)​


  47. #97

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    Have just received a follow up reply from the RSPB:

    Thank you for your email of 4 May. We are sorry that it has taken so long for us to get back to you. Your request was referred to the Wales Reserves Management Team so that they could discuss the geo-caching in the wider context of all Welsh RSPB reserves.

    Although the RSPB supports outdoor pursuits that are compatible with our nature conservation aims we have concerns about disturbance to wildlife and potential health and safety issues. Therefore we feel that we have to refuse permission for you to put a geo-cach at the reserve.

    We are sorry for this disappointment.

    Yours sincerely

    David Anning

    Mid and South Wales Woodlands and Heathlands Sites Manager
    Oh well, I tried
    I can only please one person a day. Today is not your day, tomorrow is not looking good either.

  48. #98

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Turtlebum View Post
    Have just received a follow up reply from the RSPB:



    Oh well, I tried
    Would you please forward the email to me via my reviewer email address. I own a cache in a SSSI where I work closely with the Landmanager. The whole area has a Management Team on which the RSPB sit. I'd be interested in inviting Mangers from the "Wales Reserves Management Team" to the annual CITO event we hold around October in the SSSI. With the aim of also taking them around the Multi cache there.

    It helps that that the Landmanager did a risk assesment, and also required the approval of CCW.

    Please don't concider this closed as of yet!

    Deceangi
    My post is my personal opinion and as such you do not have my permission to quote me outside of these forums!

    Dave
    Brenin Tegeingl
    Formerly known as Mancunian Pyrocacher on GC

  49. #99

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    Default

    I will, but, am unable to get on the main site at the moment.
    I can only please one person a day. Today is not your day, tomorrow is not looking good either.

  50. #100

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Turtlebum View Post
    I will, but, am unable to get on the main site at the moment.
    So are the Reviewers so no new caches going live at the moment as both forums and database servers are down. It would appear to be a non GC issue that's causing the problem. Especially as the outage is unannounced.

    Oh by the way you have a email message

    Deci
    My post is my personal opinion and as such you do not have my permission to quote me outside of these forums!

    Dave
    Brenin Tegeingl
    Formerly known as Mancunian Pyrocacher on GC

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