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Thread: Where next for the GAGB

  1. #1
    Icenians Guest

    Default Where next for the GAGB

    A short thread over on the East Anglian Cachers forum had a response suggesting that someone posted a thread on what needs changing at GAGB.

    So, here's a thread asking just that. What do you think GAB should be doing and what direction should they be heading in?

    Oh, and let's keep it civil

    Kev

  2. #2

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    I am happy as it is, don't really think anything needs changing. I suppose that's due to the fact that I have just sorta "returned" to these forums and don't really see any problems...if there has been, I have missed them!

    I do like the way that the GAGB has concentrated on getting permissions from landowners, which makes it easier to place caches.

  3. #3

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    This is my personal Non Reviewer opinion.

    i: Firstly the whole of the membership Membership needs to get actively involved in the Association. So that the GAGB can truly be said to be the voice of the community.
    ii: The Constitution needs re-writing from the base up. The original one was fine to get GAGB of the ground, but now blocks so many needed changes. But this might never happen, because of the lack of support by the membership. From memory, the Constitution requires a minimum of 2/3 or 3/4 of the total membership to vote yes. So unless this issue is resolved many changes are moot.
    iii: Given i taking place then it would be possible to engage all Listing Sites in Discussions. Especially as we will then have a fair representation of UK Terracachers on-board.
    iv: Given that ii takes place whilst the Association retains the core remit of supporting Landowner Agreements. The Association expands to provide members with negotiated discounts. Possibly with one of the large national Chains retailing Outdoor equipment, maybe considering the high No's who use their equipment with Garmin.
    v:The Association actively publicize it's self, this could include by Logo'd clothing and equipment [this would make the Association a commercial entity, something currently blocked by the constitution]
    vi: The Committee sets up a small working party to look at how other Geocaching Associations around the world benefit their memberships. And Takes the ideas most suitable for the UK community.

    The above is not all inclusive, just a starting point

    Now how about now you've raised the question Kev , you detail what changes you'd like to see happen as a
    Member of this Association you too need to voice you opinions on what changes are needed (see part i, and part iii)

    Dave-Mancunian Pyrocacher
    My post is my personal opinion and as such you do not have my permission to quote me outside of these forums!

    Dave
    Brenin Tegeingl
    Formerly known as Mancunian Pyrocacher on GC

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mancunian View Post
    ii: The Constitution needs re-writing from the base up. The original one was fine to get GAGB of the ground, but now blocks so many needed changes. But this might never happen, because of the lack of support by the membership. From memory, the Constitution requires a minimum of 2/3 or 3/4 of the total membership to vote yes. So unless this issue is resolved many changes are moot.
    Very interesting post Dave, especially this bit.

    It seems to me this problem may inadvertently have been largely created by the original mechanism whereby you joined GAGB just to use the forums, and exacerbated by life membership with no subscription. I can see this might have created a lot of members who weren't really much interested in the organisation and, even worse, means that people who have left the game are still members! I don't wish to sound morbid, but I guess some "members" may not even still be alive?

    So, would it be within the existing constitution for people to have to reaffirm their membership every year? And choose between full and forum only membership at the time? Would it be right to say that the constitution allows this two level membership, and requires votes only from full members?

    Rgds, Andy

  5. #5
    Icenians Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mancunian View Post
    Now how about now you've raised the question Kev , you detail what changes you'd like to see happen as a
    Member of this Association you too need to voice you opinions on what changes are needed (see part i, and part iii)

    Dave-Mancunian Pyrocacher
    A fair point.

    I'm not entirely sure I want any great changes in the GAGB, I don't see our hobby as something that particularly needs any great level of organisation.

    One area I would like to see an improvement in, is an attempt at a greater engagement with the UK cachers from other listing sites, and I don't mean at the top site listing level as that would be pointless in TC case.

    To date the only engagement with the users of these sites is the occassioal post around this time of year to let us know the elections are happening.

    If I could use the New Forest as an example. It's been announced on here that there is a stop on placing caches, and on GC. There is no mention of this on the other sites. My approvers are US based and wouldn't be expected to be aware of the GAGB agreements, (please no bashing the TC system in this thread, it's what we have to work with). A post in the forums there would alert any non GAGB members that use TC, and don't look at the GC forum, of the restriction.

    It would certainly help us to feel that the GAGB does actually want our membership rather than just concentrate on the main listing site.

    There also has to be a realism in the approachs taken with other listing sites. GC's way isn't the only way to do things. TC has a system and that is what we have, trust me it's extremely unlikly to be changed, and the GAGB needs to work with the system in place.

    Kev
    Last edited by Icenians; 25th November 2008 at 08:39 AM. Reason: typos and yet more typos :(

  6. #6
    StuartP Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by amberel View Post
    Very interesting post Dave, especially this bit.

    It seems to me this problem may inadvertently have been largely created by the original mechanism whereby you joined GAGB just to use the forums, and exacerbated by life membership with no subscription. I can see this might have created a lot of members who weren't really much interested in the organisation and, even worse, means that people who have left the game are still members! I don't wish to sound morbid, but I guess some "members" may not even still be alive?

    So, would it be within the existing constitution for people to have to reaffirm their membership every year? And choose between full and forum only membership at the time? Would it be right to say that the constitution allows this two level membership, and requires votes only from full members?

    Rgds, Andy
    From previous posts, and as listed on the gagb homepage

    "We have separated membership of our forums from membership of GAGB. If your membership application was validated prior to 9am BST on 3rd May 2008 you are a member of both GAGB and of our forums. If your application was validated after that time, or if you apply for membership of our forums now or in the future, you are or will become a member of our
    forums only, but not a member of GAGB itself"

    There is work going on behind the scenes to allow us to better handle the membership of the GAGB, and indeed annual renewal of membership is something that is being looked at.

    Hopefully once the new committee is in place work will be undertaken to resolve issues as raised, and to improve the GAGB and the services it offers to it's membership.

  7. #7

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    Ouch forum lost my post.

    To be the representative voice for cachers in the UK


    To remind listing sites, landowners and cachers that the GAGB should / must be involved in UK issues as its the representative UK voice of geo caching.

    To remind those organisations, cachers that do not use the GAGB for these matters that they should of been at minimum represented / informed.

    What dave said as well. :cheers:

    A lot to ask a load of volunteers but the UK should be represented in UK geo caching.

    And finally encourage use of these forums to discuss UK geocaching matters (cross posting links etc)
    "If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning."

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by StuartP View Post
    From previous posts, and as listed on the gagb homepage

    "We have separated membership of our forums from membership of GAGB. If your membership application was validated prior to 9am BST on 3rd May 2008 you are a member of both GAGB and of our forums. If your application was validated after that time, or if you apply for membership of our forums now or in the future, you are or will become a member of our
    forums only, but not a member of GAGB itself"

    There is work going on behind the scenes to allow us to better handle the membership of the GAGB, and indeed annual renewal of membership is something that is being looked at.
    Hi Stuart, Yes, I realised that it had changed now (hence my use of the words "the original mechanism"). I should have guessed that I wasn't the first to think of annual membership renewal .

    Rgds, Andy

  9. #9
    keehotee Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by markandlynn View Post
    Ouch forum lost my post.

    To be the representative voice for cachers in the UK
    You'd need Groundspeak / Terracaching / Navicache buy in to make this the case. How else are you going to make all UK cachers aware of GAGB or its role?

    To remind listing sites, landowners and cachers that the GAGB should / must be involved in UK issues as its the representative UK voice of geo caching.
    As above.

    At the moment all a cacher needs to find a box is a GPS (possibly) and access to a listing site. There is no requirement for anybody caching in the UK to ever visit this forum or become a member.
    Any change to that needs to have the full backing of all the listing sites - if only to let new members know that any caches they submit for publication will be reviewed with the requirements of the GAGB in mind. Being told after submission by your friendly local reviewer isn't good enough.

    (ie - after putting in the effort to hide a box, you're told that, actually, there's another set of rules that you didn't know about, put together by a group of people you've never heard of)

  10. #10
    nobbynobbs Guest

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    Last time I tried to open negotiations with the other listings sites I got absolutely no reply despite numerous attempts.
    Please let me know if you can think of how we can get them onboard.


  11. #11
    Icenians Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by markandlynn View Post
    To remind listing sites, landowners and cachers that the GAGB should / must be involved in UK issues as its the representative UK voice of geo caching.

    To remind those organisations, cachers that do not use the GAGB for these matters that they should of been at minimum represented / informed.
    I'm not aware of any other hobby I take part in where I have or even should, be a member. I can climb and walk without being a member of the BMC. I canoe without membership to the BCU. If I wish to canoe the local waterways I can. If I wanted to shoot some rapids, difficult in Norfolk I can whether I have a BCU star or not.

    I see GAGB providing that sort of level within the UK. They have members, provide sevices to their members, and even fight the fight for their hobby. They don't stop people carrying out the hobby outside of the organisation nor do they impose their rules on those not wishing to join.

    At best GAGB can make itself attractive and even benificial to join.

    Informed I agree with. GAGB should make people aware that the landowner agreements exist beyond one site. They should be trying to encourage people to join and promoting the guidelines etc through the membership.

    If someone has an objection to the GAGB and does not wish to be a member then GAGB should not be trying to impose it's ideals on the individual via the listing sites.

    We can only speak for ourselves as an organisation not others outside the organisation.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by keehotee View Post
    You'd need Groundspeak / Terracaching / Navicache buy in to make this the case. How else are you going to make all UK cachers aware of GAGB or its role?


    As above.

    At the moment all a cacher needs to find a box is a GPS (possibly) and access to a listing site. There is no requirement for anybody caching in the UK to ever visit this forum or become a member.
    Any change to that needs to have the full backing of all the listing sites - if only to let new members know that any caches they submit for publication will be reviewed with the requirements of the GAGB in mind. Being told after submission by your friendly local reviewer isn't good enough.

    (ie - after putting in the effort to hide a box, you're told that, actually, there's another set of rules that you didn't know about, put together by a group of people you've never heard of)
    Why do we need them to buy into this ? why do UK cachers need the permision of any listing site to negotiate in the UK for UK cachers, be involved in UK based guidelines, discussions and negotiations.

    There are some brilliant negotiators here, how involved were they in the london issues recently ? and if not why not ? someone on the ground and able to visit in person works wonders.

    The listing sites should come here not the other way round i feel this is my representative body for caching not a listing site.

    By analogy i use ebay to list items for auction cause its a good listing site, but do its rules supersede UK laws and rules re auctions ?

    Using the BMC and canoeing walking analogy you have used the same stretch of water / rock / hill for years without being a member or using its facilities you turn up tommorow and the landowner has fenced it off and put a toll booth in your way, where do you go ? what do you do who goes and deals with your access issue ?
    "If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning."

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Icenians View Post
    A fair point.

    I'm not entirely sure I want any great changes in the GAGB, I don't see our hobby as something that particularly needs any great level of organisation.

    One area I would like to see an improvement in, is an attempt at a greater engagement with the UK cachers from other listing sites, and I don't mean at the top site listing level as that would be pointless in TC case.

    To date the only engagement with the users of these sites is the occassioal post around this time of year to let us know the elections are happening.

    If I could use the New Forest as an example. It's been announced on here that there is a stop on placing caches, and on GC. There is no mention of this on the other sites. My approvers are US based and wouldn't be expected to be aware of the GAGB agreements, (please no bashing the TC system in this thread, it's what we have to work with). A post in the forums there would alert any non GAGB members that use TC, and don't look at the GC forum, of the restriction.

    It would certainly help us to feel that the GAGB does actually want our membership rather than just concentrate on the main listing site.

    There also has to be a realism in the approachs taken with other listing sites. GC's way isn't the only way to do things. TC has a system and that is what we have, trust me it's extremely unlikly to be changed, and the GAGB needs to work with the system in place.

    Kev
    All good points. Particularly, I agree that we don't need too much organisation, due to the nature of geocaching.

    However, the GAGB does have an important role in partnership with the main listing site (geocaching.com, for those who might not know), by helping with local difficulties, and providing support and advice to GB cachers.

    But it should be recognised that geocaching cannot be regulated and controlled beyond a certain limit.

    Again taking the New Forest/new cache ban as an example: what are the limitations of the ban? It's a GAGB and Groundspeak rule as far as I can see, so I think that it's limited to being;
    • No advertising of new caches in the New Forest on this forum
    • Any cache descriptions submitted to geocaching.com will not be published if the cache is within the New Forest.
    If a local person chooses to go and hide a few Bison tubes in New Forest car parks and then publicises the GPS coordinates to his mates; it's still geocaching, but there's nothing any organisation can do about it. If it's listed on Navicache or Terracaching, where there presently appears to be no mechanism for "stopping" the listing, it might get spotted by a GAGB member. But I'm not clear whether the GAGB can do anything more than e-mail the cache owner and ask for the cache to be de-listed.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by keehotee View Post
    Any change to that needs to have the full backing of all the listing sites - if only to let new members know that any caches they submit for publication will be reviewed with the requirements of the GAGB in mind. Being told after submission by your friendly local reviewer isn't good enough.

    (ie - after putting in the effort to hide a box, you're told that, actually, there's another set of rules that you didn't know about, put together by a group of people you've never heard of)
    Actually your made aware of this point before submitting a cache on Geocaching.com. That's if the person even bothers to actually read the Guidelines

    In addition, there may be local regulations already in place for certain types of parks in your region (state parks, county preserves, etc.). There are many local caching organizations that would be able to help you out with those regulations. If your area does not have a local caching organization please contact your local reviewer for information on regulations. If you have complied with special regulations by obtaining a permit, please state this on your cache page or in a 'note to the reviewer'. A reviewer may request that you provide contact information for the person who gave you permission to hide your cache.
    If the Geocaching.com web site is contacted and informed that your cache has been placed inappropriately, your cache may be archived or disabled and you may be contacted with any information provided by the individual or organization who contacted us.
    Deci
    My post is my personal opinion and as such you do not have my permission to quote me outside of these forums!

    Dave
    Brenin Tegeingl
    Formerly known as Mancunian Pyrocacher on GC

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Icenians View Post
    I'm not aware of any other hobby I take part in where I have or even should, be a member. I can climb and walk without being a member of the BMC. I canoe without membership to the BCU. If I wish to canoe the local waterways I can. If I wanted to shoot some rapids, difficult in Norfolk I can whether I have a BCU star or not.

    I see GAGB providing that sort of level within the UK. They have members, provide sevices to their members, and even fight the fight for their hobby. They don't stop people carrying out the hobby outside of the organisation nor do they impose their rules on those not wishing to join.

    At best GAGB can make itself attractive and even benificial to join.

    Informed I agree with. GAGB should make people aware that the landowner agreements exist beyond one site. They should be trying to encourage people to join and promoting the guidelines etc through the membership.

    If someone has an objection to the GAGB and does not wish to be a member then GAGB should not be trying to impose it's ideals on the individual via the listing sites.

    We can only speak for ourselves as an organisation not others outside the organisation.
    Agreed, I don't think we can require ALL uk cachers to be members of GAGB, and I don't think anyone is suggesting that.

    However, To take your canoe analogy and stretch it a little, on many waterways in the UK (certainly the larger ones and all of BW canals) you are required to have a licence in order to use it. In the same way, if you wish to list a cache on any listing site, you are required to follow the guidelines for that site.

    Ideally, I see all listing sites in the UK having some kind of placing guidelines. This isn't a dig at TC (there's another thread for sicussing TC) or NC, but I honestly wonder if absolutely any cache can be placed, subject to the individual reviewer/sponsor.

    For example, in the USA, would TC allow caches near railroad tracks. In the UK, can you place a cache deep in a Dry Stone Wall. Are buried caches allowed? Can they be buried anywhere? (churchyard? minefield?! :lol: )

    I imagine that this isn't the case (hopefully Kev can confirm) however I'm picturing some unwritten guidelines that the sponsors follow. If TC is intending to expand, then maybe a simple statement on the website stating that regional guidelines will be followed where they exist. GAGB can then formally prepare, after discussion with ALL listing sites, a set of appropriate guidelines which are only limiting on Health & Safety and Environmental grounds, which hopefully would be acceptable to all cachers.

    To do this, communication needs to be open with the other sites. Icenians and Sandvika are an enormous help in putting across the TC point of view. How much communication is there with NC, either users or reviewers?
    I confess to knowing nothing about NC!

    Discuss! :lol:

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